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[MaximumPC]AMD: R9 290X Will Be "Much Faster Than Titan in Battlefield 4" - Page 36  

post #351 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Wow, its a whole new frontier. I guess AMD is hoping that a majority of big titles get released in Mantle so that when reviewers go to compare video cards in the future all the GCN cards perform way better, not because of hardware superiority but simply because the games themselves are coded for that hardware. Sneaky move...

Very sneaky, and very smart way to exploit their resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regent Square View Post

It wont take long for Nvidia to come up with something similar to Mante. Not sure why so many worries?

Why would devs use anything nvidia came up with? Devs would use Mantle simply because they're already useing Mantle for the consoles.

They probably will not use it for PC exclusives. Why would they want to write for yet another API? Same problem for whatever nVidia does.
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post #352 of 567
I would like to know how low level this API actually is. Assuming it's no Java, would it be closer to x86/MIPS or C++?
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post #353 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regent Square View Post

It wont take long for Nvidia to come up with something similar to Mante. Not sure why so many worries?

Its not about nvidia making their own. Its the fact that any console developer for this upcoming generation already has a head start in porting over too the pc under mantle. Will they still use DX? Of course, they wouldn't ostracize over half of PC gamers.

Nvidia would have to do a lot of leg work for their own api to take off. Where as amd will be putting mantle capabilities into millions of living rooms, giving developers more reason to use it if going multi platform.
     
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post #354 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Very sneaky, and very smart way to exploit their resources.
Why would devs use anything nvidia came up with? Devs would use Mantle simply because they're already useing Mantle for the consoles.

They probably will not use it for PC exclusives. Why would they want to write for yet another API? Same problem for whatever nVidia does.

You should really live under a rock to think Nvidia wont regain the crown back. I am saying they will make Manta like way to keep em in game.
post #355 of 567
It would definitely suck if you had to buy both Nvidia and AMD hardware to play games. Fragmentation is always bad...
post #356 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Wow, its a whole new frontier. I guess AMD is hoping that a majority of big titles get released in Mantle so that when reviewers go to compare video cards in the future all the GCN cards perform way better, not because of hardware superiority but simply because the games themselves are coded for that hardware. Sneaky move...

It's not like it's not happening already. For example:



In a non-AMD optimized game:



Civ 5 is a bad example actually, but AT doesn't have games that are truly neutral.

Another gaming Evolved title I guess to use as an example.



My point is Dirt Showdown is optimized for AMD, and as you can see, a 7970GE is on par with a Titan, Mantle will really take this to a whole new level, and that's what AMD is hoping for. They're really "leveraging" those console wins.

I saw your other posts, and just reference this:



I know "some" people around here have always seen Intel / NVIDIA as the big bad wolf with proprietary standards, and it has always been my belief that if AMD could, they would, say Hello to Mantle.

A lot of people are mistakenly assuming that Mantle being open means it's open NVIDIA, last I checked, NVIDIA's architecture isn't GCN. wink.gif This is open to developers to use, which AMD will welcome with open arms, since it will help sell more GCN cards in the future.
Edited by 2010rig - 9/26/13 at 6:53pm
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post #357 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

It's not like it's not happening already. For example:



In a non-AMD optimized game:



Civ 5 is a bad example actually, but AT doesn't have games that are truly neutral.

Another gaming Evolved title I guess to use as an example.



My point is Dirt Showdown is optimized for AMD, and as you can see, a 7970GE is on par with a Titan, Mantle will really take this to a whole new level, and that's what AMD is hoping for. They're really "leveraging" those console wins.

I saw your other posts, and just reference this:



I know "some" people around here have always seen Intel / NVIDIA as the big bad wolf with proprietary standards, and it has always been my belief that if AMD could, they would, say Hello to Mantle.

A lot of people are mistakenly assuming that Mantle being open means it's open NVIDIA, last I checked, NVIDIA's architecture isn't GCN. wink.gif This is open to developers to use, which AMD will welcome with open arms, since it will help sell more GCN cards in the future.

It's open in that it can be adapted to use any architecutre. GCN happens to be the first. The problem is developers working with mantle for PC's will have to consider each GPU architecture they wish to support if they want to use it exclusively. This is the magic of DirectX and OpenGL in that they are architecture agnostic and make the lives of the game developers much easier. On the other hand they make the driver developers work hard to get the most they can out of those API's along with the loss in performance from quirks in development.
post #358 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

My point is Dirt Showdown is optimized for AMD, and as you can see, a 7970GE is on par with a Titan, Mantle will really take this to a whole new level, and that's what AMD is hoping for. They're really "leveraging" those console wins.
I was once assume that 20-25% gain is at best Mantle can do. But Base on the chart u are providing, it seems even 50% is "quite" possible.

Right now, I see Developer will do something like this.

1. Develop a their game in mantle run awesome in PS4, XboxOne(developer will likely ignore directX here unless Microsoft decides to lock down mantle completely away from XboxONe, because if developer using DirectX in Xboxone that is an extra work for developer)
2. Port the game to PC, keep the mantle optimization for GCN GPU users
3. Add directX support for Nvidia/intel gamer via the Mantle->DirectX conversion. (which the tool is already provided by AMD)

No matter how u see it Microsoft is not the biggest loser, I doubt they even care if DirectX is losing its ground. They wont be happy but they are not taking a huge hit. Gamers are only a small portion of market share who buy genuine Windows anyway. The biggest loser is still Nvidia/Intel, with Nvidia being specific.
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post #359 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvantheDugtrio View Post

It's open in that it can be adapted to use any architecutre. GCN happens to be the first. The problem is developers working with mantle for PC's will have to consider each GPU architecture they wish to support if they want to use it exclusively. This is the magic of DirectX and OpenGL in that they are architecture agnostic and make the lives of the game developers much easier. On the other hand they make the driver developers work hard to get the most they can out of those API's along with the loss in performance from quirks in development.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I've understood it is that Mantle is GCN specific.
Quote:
The best place to start with Mantle is a high level overview. What is Mantle? Mantle is a new low-level graphics API specifically geared for AMD’s Graphics Core Next architecture. Whereas standard APIs such as OpenGL and Direct3D operate at a high level to provide the necessary abstraction that makes these APIs operate across a wide variety of devices, Mantle is the very opposite. Mantle goes as low as is reasonably possible, with minimal levels of abstraction between the code and the hardware. Mantle is for all practical purposes an API for doing bare metal programming to GCN. The concept itself is simple, and although low-level APIs have been done before, it has been some time since we’ve seen anything like this in the PC space.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

This is interesting.
Quote:
What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

More interesting reading, which confirms my assumption.
Quote:
Perspective #4: The Drawbacks of Low Level APIs
With all of that in mind, while Mantle has the potential to provide benefits to users and developers alike, there are also some very clear downsides to using a low level API in PC game development.

Unlike consoles, PCs are not fixed platforms, and this is especially the case in the world of PC graphics. If we include both discrete and integrated graphics then we are looking at three very different players: AMD, Intel, and NVIDIA. All three have their own graphics architectures, and while they are bound together at the high level by Direct3D feature requirements and some common sense design choices, at the low level they’re all using very different architectures. The abstraction provided by APIs like Direct3D and OpenGL is what allows these hardware vendors to work together in the PC space, but if those abstractions are removed in the name of performance then that compatibility and broad support is lost in the process.


A lot of press – ourselves included – immediately began comparing Mantle to Glide. Glide was another low level API that was developed by the long-gone GPU manufacturer 3dfx, and at the height of their power in the mid-to-late 90s 3dfx wielded considerable influence thanks to Glide. Glide was easier to work with than the immature Direct3D API, and for a time games either supported only Glide, or supported Glide alongside Direct3D or OpenGL. Almost inevitably the Glide rendering path was better in some respect, be it performance, features, or a general decrease in bugs. This was fantastic for 3dfx card owners, but as both AMD (nee ATI) and NVIDIA can tell you, this wasn’t great for those parties that were on the outside.

I would quote that whole article LOL, everybody should read it.
Edited by 2010rig - 9/26/13 at 7:39pm
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post #360 of 567
I am not a amd fan or nvidia fan or intel vs amd fan boy. I buy what I like and think best suits me at the time and within my budget. My sig rig is my first time I said forget it I am going to build one with what I want. I do hope these gpus beat everything on the current market for a cheaper price its good for us as consumers as it forces better stuff at cheaper prices. What I would really like to see is amd get better cpu architecture to compete better along side intel. Amd has always had its niche and will always have one for the budget consius computer builder which is great but I think if this card performs like they make it out to be it will be a big blow. The question is going to be for how long though with nvidia maxwell scheduled for spring 2014. I think that's going to be the big question.Hopefully it blows that line up out of the water with same performance for cheaper price
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