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post #361 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I've understood it is that Mantle is GCN specific.

I believe that is what has been stated.

Anyway, if this is how AMD wins the performance crown, then so be it. Looks like my next card will be a cheap $200 card if it can be expected to perform like a top level Nvidia card. Imagine that, there will be even less need to have a top tier card if even the mid range cards get a huge boost from Mantle. Unless AMD starts intentionally crippling Mantle on the cheaper cards, so they can justify the sell of the more expensive cards.
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post #362 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

It's not like it's not happening already. For example:

My point is Dirt Showdown is optimized for AMD, and as you can see, a 7970GE is on par with a Titan, Mantle will really take this to a whole new level, and that's what AMD is hoping for. They're really "leveraging" those console wins.

A lot of people are mistakenly assuming that Mantle being open means it's open NVIDIA, last I checked, NVIDIA's architecture isn't GCN. wink.gif This is open to developers to use, which AMD will welcome with open arms, since it will help sell more GCN cards in the future.
Dirt 3 benefits from Forward+ rendering. We haven't seen what Mantle is capable of yet afaik.
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post #363 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post


And as I said then you obviously also have QA and stuff like that to worry about.
AMD GPU marketshare =/= GCN marketshare. GCN is at 5-6% atm.

But aren't the PS4 and Xbone one using GCN? If so that 5-6% at the moment is about to jump to probably 90%

At first I am sure any PC ports will still have the DirectX libraries integrated with it...but if Mantle is used on the consoles that will probably be in there too. If AMD get enough market share...I am sure some devs will just stop doing the work to have DirectX in their games and just make people use a GCN capable GPU on the PC
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 9/26/13 at 7:34pm
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post #364 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

I believe that is what has been stated.

Anyway, if this is how AMD wins the performance crown, then so be it. Looks like my next card will be a cheap $200 card if it can be expected to perform like a top level Nvidia card. Imagine that, there will be even less need to have a top tier card if even the mid range cards get a huge boost from Mantle. Unless AMD starts intentionally crippling Mantle on the cheaper cards, so they can justify the sell of the more expensive cards.

lol. Hold your horses. 99% this goes unused completely and we never hear of it again in a year from now, outside jokes.
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post #365 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

But aren't the PS4 and Xbone one using GCN? If so that 5-6% at the moment is about to jump to probably 90%

At first I am sure any PC ports will still have the DirectX libraries integrated with it...but if Mantle is used on the consoles that will probably be in there too. If AMD get enough market share...I am sure some devs will just stop doing the work to have DirectX in their games and just make people use a GCN capable GPU on the PC
Don't believe all these guys tell you. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ As Alatar always posts 5% =/= 33%
post #366 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I've understood it is that Mantle is GCN specific.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

This is interesting.

This is what I was talking about. Mantle is open in that the technology can be applied to any GPU architecture but each version of Mantle will be specific to that architecture. This means there can be versions for GCN, VLIW4, Kepler, etc. They just won't be intercompatible so the game will have to come with 3 (or more) versions of Mantle to work on GPU's with these architectures if they exclusively use Mantle. The other option is much simpler which is to use DirectX or OpenGL.

It will be up to game developers to make Mantle in their game compatible with more than just GCN when other architectures get supported.
post #367 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvantheDugtrio View Post

This is what I was talking about. Mantle is open in that the technology can be applied to any GPU architecture but each version of Mantle will be specific to that architecture. This means there can be versions for GCN, VLIW4, Kepler, etc. They just won't be intercompatible so the game will have to come with 3 (or more) versions of Mantle to work on GPU's with these architectures if they exclusively use Mantle. The other option is much simpler which is to use DirectX or OpenGL.

It will be up to game developers to make Mantle in their game compatible with more than just GCN when other architectures get supported.

You really should read that article if you haven't already.
Quote:
A lot of press – ourselves included – immediately began comparing Mantle to Glide. Glide was another low level API that was developed by the long-gone GPU manufacturer 3dfx, and at the height of their power in the mid-to-late 90s 3dfx wielded considerable influence thanks to Glide. Glide was easier to work with than the immature Direct3D API, and for a time games either supported only Glide, or supported Glide alongside Direct3D or OpenGL. Almost inevitably the Glide rendering path was better in some respect, be it performance, features, or a general decrease in bugs. This was fantastic for 3dfx card owners, but as both AMD (nee ATI) and NVIDIA can tell you, this wasn’t great for those parties that were on the outside.

As a result of this, as great as Glide was at the time, it’s widely considered a good thing that Glide died out and that Direct3D took over as the reining king of PC graphics APIs. Developers stopped utilizing multiple rendering paths, and their single rendering path was better for everyone as a result. Having games written exclusively in a common, industry standard API was better for everyone.

Mantle by its very nature reverses that, by reestablishing a low level API that exists at least in part in competition with Direct3D and OpenGL. Consequently while Mantle is good for AMD users, is Mantle good for NVIDIA and Intel users? Do developers start splitting their limited resources between Mantle and Direct3D, spending less time and resources on their Direct3D rendering paths as a result?

Final Words

When AMD first told us about their plans for Mantle, it was something we took in equal parts of shock, confusion, and awe. The fact that AMD would seek to exploit their console connection was widely expected, however the fact that they would do so with such an aggressive move was not. If our suspicions are right and AMD is bringing over the Xbox One low level API, then this means AMD isn’t just merely exploiting the similarities to Microsoft’s forthcoming console, but they are exploiting the very heart of their console connection. To bring over a console’s low level graphics API in this manner is quite simply unprecedented.

I'll stop quoting the article now. thumb.gif

I'm not trying to, or even want to be right about this. wink.gif
Edited by 2010rig - 9/26/13 at 7:53pm
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post #368 of 567
I postulate that Mantle would actually benefit the previous VLIW architecture better, since the reason 2900xt actually failed due to its 512 bit bus and the plans had to involve gddr5 was that its TMU's had to be supplied with sufficient bandwidth somehow. Maybe the drawcall enhancement could benefit me playing BF4 with fine optimisation.redface.gif
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post #369 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

But aren't the PS4 and Xbone one using GCN? If so that 5-6% at the moment is about to jump to probably 90%

At first I am sure any PC ports will still have the DirectX libraries integrated with it...but if Mantle is used on the consoles that will probably be in there too. If AMD get enough market share...I am sure some devs will just stop doing the work to have DirectX in their games and just make people use a GCN capable GPU on the PC
Don't believe all these guys tell you. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ As Alatar always posts 5% =/= 33%

and that 33% is ALL GCN hardware?
ALL VIDEO CARDS
ATI Radeon HD 7850 1.24%
ATI Radeon HD 7770 1.05%
ATI Radeon HD 7870 0.85%
ATI Radeon HD 7950 0.77%
ATI Radeon HD 7970 0.73%

TOTAL 4.64%

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
oopps sorry forgot:

ATI Radeon HD 7750 0.59%

TOTAL 5.23%
Edited by looniam - 9/26/13 at 7:53pm
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post #370 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

You really should read that article if you haven't already.
I get the possible fear, but we cant just fall back and rely on DX because of the ease. If there is a path to make performance easier and less taxing or able to result more with the same effort then someone has to try. Mantle could be the early stages of possibility that may very well benefit all. Maybe it benefits AMD more but what if later of course it proves to benefit Nvidia more than on DX? I have seen enough of the debate to know the only benefit (well simply put) is the common path. For the most part it isn't the ideal as far as performance is concerned. If anything it is the fall back, safe place. If indeed the information I saw from one poster is correct and AMD gave the developers a Mantle to DX set to make the ports easier, or lets be honest, easier to add Mantle to PC, then it is just a win for the most part.
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