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post #501 of 567
AMD cards can also do physx, they are as powerful. That just makes me not like NV even more.
post #502 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

You missed my point. He was comparing Mantle to Physx as being similar/same thing. But any AMD fan never fails to let us know how useless they find Physx.

So if Nvidia is evil for some "useless" features that Physx brings, than just how evil does Mantle make AMD? From what I seen most AMD fans here find it a little funny. Seems a little hypocritical to me, when in fact Mantle can cause greater issues than Physx ever has.

What you call "useless" was Nvidia's differentiation strategy. Mantle is AMD's differentiation strategy. But the main point here is Mantle was co-developed by AMD and DICE/EA . Johan Andersson led the entire project. Developers wanted more on the PC and DICE took the initiative along with AMD to extract more out of the PC. I can't blame them. With 4k gaming starting to pick up Mantle could enable 4k gaming on cutting edge titles like BF4 at very good fps.

Mantle is for developers who want to push the envelope in PC gaming. 4k single and multi monitor gaming needs a lot of gpu power. Only something like Mantle can make it possible at good performance. there is an article from anandtech which says Mantle is the low level graphics API in Xbox One. So porting from Xbox One to PC Mantle should be easy.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

We will get more details at Johan Andersson's keynote at AMD Developer Summit 2013. Make no mistake. AMD has exploited their console design wins to the maximum, and as a company I cannot fault them. AMD has been at the receiving end of many such aggressive moves - Intel C++ compiler , Nvidia PhysX. its time AMD returned back the favour.
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post #503 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopper View Post

PhysX drops fps.
license fee cost more money means more expensive to me.
pretty much a locked feature that cost money

amd release Mantle to BF4 I get more value from my 7970.
Nvidia can support it also.
Open feature delivers more fps and removes bottlnecks not create them like PhysX.
all nvidia had to do was to support compute but they dont want to do that in any business decision they made they want to lock stuff.

Bring on BF4 and Mantle.


Wrong. Nvidia can't support Mantle unless they have access to a gpu that uses GCN. And PhysX is not something that you "need" in a game. I rather like PhysX, but a lot of the effects are just for show and does not intentionally cause a large performance gap between AMD and Nvidia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

What you call "useless" was Nvidia's differentiation strategy. Mantle is AMD's differentiation strategy. But the main point here is Mantle was co-developed by AMD and DICE/EA . Johan Andersson led the entire project. Developers wanted more on the PC and DICE took the initiative along with AMD to extract more out of the PC. I can't blame them. With 4k gaming starting to pick up Mantle could enable 4k gaming on cutting edge titles like BF4 at very good fps.

Mantle is for developers who want to push the envelope in PC gaming. 4k single and multi monitor gaming needs a lot of gpu power. Only something like Mantle can make it possible at good performance. there is an article from anandtech which says Mantle is the low level graphics API in Xbox One. So porting from Xbox One to PC Mantle should be easy.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

We will get more details at Johan Andersson's keynote at AMD Developer Summit 2013. Make no mistake. AMD has exploited their console design wins to the maximum, and as a company I cannot fault them. AMD has been at the receiving end of many such aggressive moves - Intel C++ compiler , Nvidia PhysX. its time AMD returned back the favour.

Of course you are all for AMD doing something like this. You are one of the most bias individuals on this site. thumb.gif

Again, this is totally in AMD's right, I just want some of you to admit that it is a little underhanded move by the sweet and innocent AMD.
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post #504 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by amd655 View Post

PhysX drops FPS for AMD, AMD lock out Nvidia dropping FPS...

But AMD are golden.


Dat logic.

AMD isn't locking anyone out of anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

Wrong. Nvidia can't support Mantle unless they have access to a gpu that uses GCN. And PhysX is not something that you "need" in a game. I rather like PhysX, but a lot of the effects are just for show and does not intentionally cause a large performance gap between AMD and Nvidia.
.

The biggest problem I have with physX is that it DOESNT add anything to the game besides just for show effects. *I couldn't care less if nV ever allowed it on AMD GPU's, but locking it down to a single core on CPU is... annoying to say the least.*
Edited by OwnedINC - 9/27/13 at 8:16am
post #505 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

AMD isn't locking anyone out of anything.

GCN ONLY...
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post #506 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouacyk View Post

Absolutely useless, because (surprise!) BF3 and BF4 and FB3 do not use it!

Edit: But something like Mantle has no alternatives out there, so its serious business. Take my money already.

I'll just put this here,

https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi

Dunno if it's been discussed already or not but....


*heads for cover*
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post #507 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

I'll just put this here,

https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi

Dunno if it's been discussed already or not but....


*heads for cover*

I think it has been mentioned.
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post #508 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

I'll just put this here,

https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi

Dunno if it's been discussed already or not but....


*heads for cover*

It most likely is due to my lack of knowledge, but I found nVidia's explanation a bit too loose... What can it do to boost performance? It seems to be focused in controlling the card's peripherals and operating modes, but not really on improving the actual code performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amd655 View Post

GCN ONLY...

It makes sense to optimize it for their latest architecture.

If you were to make high performance code for high performance machines, would you optimize for a Pentium 4, or an Athlon64? I severely doubt so.
   
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post #509 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

And you also have to remember that we're talking about a low level API here, NV's architecture has changed pretty drastically since G80 even though they can all run CUDA after it. With every change AMD makes to GCN the less benefit they will see from using mantle. Do you honestly think they will refrain from architectural changes just so that some PC gamers can get some extra fps? No. They will do all the modifications they need to improve their architecture so they can keep up with Nvidia and have more and more competitive offerings in the HPC market.
When GCN was introduced, AMD made it clear that this wasn't a new architecture; it was the new architecture. Right off the bat, they made it known that GCN will change very little in the foreseeable future. I'd say we know why, now, as Mantle is being introduced.
The performance gains that can be acquired from having a low level API will outweigh architecture improvements over the years, if it's widely adopted by console developers. I'll take die shrinks + a low level API over die shrinks + architecture improvements any day, and so would you. 28nm Fermi running games with a low level API would be crushing DirectX Kepler, unless something was very very wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar 
Porting is easier but only works for GCN parts. Great. Sounds wonderful, more effort to get a game to your market if you wish to use both mantle and DX.
just gonna have to use this one here:

proof.gif
Again, it's not more effort. Both consoles are GCN, so developer already need a low level API. Developers that use DirectX or OpenGL to make their PS4/Xbox One games will do less work, but have games that run terribly on the consoles and look like garbage compared to games written with a low level API. To stay competitive they need to learn to use a low level API, and AMD has already made one for them.
Why do you keep saying using Mantle is extra effort, when you already know that console developers need to put that effort forth anyway. Even the lamest PS3/Xbox games are using low level API's to get the most out of the consoles. Mantle is made to save them effort, so that they can port easily from one console to the either, and also to GCN PCs, laptops, and perhaps even tablets/phones in the long run. Mantle also makes it easier for developers to port to DX11, according to AMD. Everything about Mantle is made so that developers can have their cake and eat it too, so why wouldn't they use it?

The extra effort, I guess you'll say.

As for proof, google "every low level API to ever exist, ever" and put the rest of the picture together yourself.
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post #510 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

What you call "useless" was Nvidia's differentiation strategy. Mantle is AMD's differentiation strategy. But the main point here is Mantle was co-developed by AMD and DICE/EA . Johan Andersson led the entire project. Developers wanted more on the PC and DICE took the initiative along with AMD to extract more out of the PC. I can't blame them. With 4k gaming starting to pick up Mantle could enable 4k gaming on cutting edge titles like BF4 at very good fps.

Mantle is for developers who want to push the envelope in PC gaming. 4k single and multi monitor gaming needs a lot of gpu power. Only something like Mantle can make it possible at good performance. there is an article from anandtech which says Mantle is the low level graphics API in Xbox One. So porting from Xbox One to PC Mantle should be easy.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

We will get more details at Johan Andersson's keynote at AMD Developer Summit 2013. Make no mistake. AMD has exploited their console design wins to the maximum, and as a company I cannot fault them. AMD has been at the receiving end of many such aggressive moves - Intel C++ compiler , Nvitsidia PhysX. its time AMD returned back the favour.

I agree with the direction, conceptually. Implementation is another thing altogether. I don't care who gets there first (AMD or Nvidia) with this tech, but if it works as it is being hyped, this is great news for everyone!
If someone had clicked on the live stream at AMD's conference, after missing the first 20-30 minutes or so (once it actually went live). they would not have been able to tell whether AMD presenters were talking about the new discreet gpus, or chatting up features, in general, for the upcoming consoles. The point is that AMD spent more time talking about gaming, rather than PC gaming. Their energy and focus is currently on consoles, and not on discreet gpus, regardless what was said. To give an example; they or someone from AMD crapped all over pcper for reporting on eyefinity and 4k driver issues recently, yet they failed to come up with a fix by the time the conference went live. And missed an opportunity to embarrass pcper. Now, AMD is promising all kind of goodies for PC gamers, as long as everyone buys into this Unicorn called, Mantle, but they don't have the time to fix the drivers!? credibility issue perhaps?
No reviews, and no benchmarks for this so called 290x the fastest single gpu by AMD, yet its a great product for pre-order, according to AMD. Is it even ready yet?
AMD has to deliver, and then we will believe, Until such time, talk is cheap Pardon the skepticism, but I believe it is warranted in this case.
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