Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [AT]Understanding AMD's Mantle
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[AT]Understanding AMD's Mantle - Page 7

post #61 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrubbb View Post

info about linux support (or not support) needed!

spitting in the wind here, but the steam machine is linux, so there will be some commercial support, or at least desire, to get it working in linux. If i was looking for data, I;d look there.
New gaming rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k some mid range asrock. extreme 4 maybe? 2x gigabyte windforce 7950 2 x 8 corsair balistix sport 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
crucial ct960 LG blu-ray used venamous x win 8.1 pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Crossover 30Q5 PRO 30" 2560X1600  cheapest piece of crud I could find antec HCG 750 some thermaltake microcenter blue-light-special... 
MouseMouse PadAudio
came with the cheapass keyboard who cares? some $30 no name 2+sub speakers I bought at mic... 
  hide details  
Reply
New gaming rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k some mid range asrock. extreme 4 maybe? 2x gigabyte windforce 7950 2 x 8 corsair balistix sport 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
crucial ct960 LG blu-ray used venamous x win 8.1 pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Crossover 30Q5 PRO 30" 2560X1600  cheapest piece of crud I could find antec HCG 750 some thermaltake microcenter blue-light-special... 
MouseMouse PadAudio
came with the cheapass keyboard who cares? some $30 no name 2+sub speakers I bought at mic... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #62 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Speculation, not assumption. We all do this while discussing up and coming releases, I don't think I need to prefix each sentence with "I speculate" any more than you do.

GCN will be found on all up and coming APU's and GPU's from here on, and HSA is around the corner for these products too. In a year, yes, 50% of Steam users will still be running Windows XP and integrated GPU's from the year 2005. However, if either an AMD APU or GPU is in 1 out of 5 laptops/desktops sold next year, there'll still be one hell of a lot of them out there. These consoles will be around for a long time, and every GCN release will be compounded by the next. GCN marketshare will be huge, and this appears to be premeditated by AMD. It's no coincidence that AMD suddenly decided to introduce GCN 2 years ago with the statement that it'll be sticking around for a very long time, after years of a revolving door of changing architectures.

Sure, there'll be costs for DRM, licensing, testing and all that with a PC port even if it is Mantle to Mantle, but you won't need to rebuild the entire game using a new API. I didn't say it would be free, but I did say the costs will be abysmal compared to what they are today and I stand by that.

Steam XP users are under 7%...

And still, even after some yers GCN will definitely be in the minority. Even if it jumped to half of all AMD graphics hardware in a year you would still only have around 16% marketshare.

Also games this gen are more easily ported anyways due to the consoles being x86. I do not think we are in any position to even suggest that using mantle is over 10 times cheaper than using directX for PC games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trulsrohk View Post

The 5% you are quoting... I know you got it from the steam survey, but pretending that it is a number that makes sense to use for "how much of the pc market is GCN?" is silly.

First of all, it's 5.23 according to the survey for cards that you can see (and hey... there's a whopping 34% of the market that doesn't make the list, none of those could be GCN cards could they?) Heck if we want to go around irresponsibly extrapolating meaning from the top 60 GPUs reported on the steam survey then we will invariably come to the conclusion that AMD and NVIDIA are both in major trouble since Intel has a corner on 11.5% of the pc gaming market and growing!

Stats are meaningless without controls or proper context... just because you have a source for one doesn't mean that it's at all useful for that application that you try to bend it to.

Some pretty big assumptions indeed tongue.gif

The amount of GCN based GPUs isn't actually that big. Almost all the 7000 series GCN parts are listed individually and the 8000 OEM hasn't been shipping even nearly as long. So I don't think the 5% is that much of a stretch. Yes the real number is likely a tad more but that doesn't mean that 5% is completely invalid for the sorts of comparisons were making here. The concepts, stats etc. are simplified anyways, no need to be extremely accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Well, a console needs a proprietary low level API because it's the only way to eliminate the massive overhead of standardized API's like DirectX and OpenGL. Since both consoles are GCN based, a single proprietary low level API is the obvious answer, and AMD is trailblazing on this front because any propriety API that they make can easily be moved to Windows/Linux to be used by consumer PC gamers. It's a no brainer for them, because they'll gain those massive performance gains from using a low-level API on their consumer graphics on any console-ported title or Mantle-supported PC title, the same way that consoles have in the past.

Low level APIs are NOT the only thing used on consoles.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #63 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Up until yesterday everyone just assumed the consoles were going to be using your typical API, and not an EXTREMELY specialized API built completely around the CPU/GPU of the system itself.

No, I don't think anybody thought that. All anyone has been talking about is how the consoles are going to be able to do amazing things because the developers can work close to the bare metal - no one was lamenting the fact that consoles were going to be held back by having to run DX or something. Mantle is about bringing console optimizations to PC, not about the console optimizations themselves, as they were always going to be there. The big news is that AMD is making this available on the PC, not that it exists at all.
post #64 of 130
Two things of note to add to this discussion:

1) Mantle is something developers have been asking GPU manufactures to make available for years. They have been asking Consoles companies the same as well. they want easier ports and metal access. AMD's sales job won't be as hard as some are proclaiming.

2) The interesting part for AMD is not how many users will benefit from Mantle when it is released. Instead, it is how many users will buy GCN cards to get the benefits of console ports. The mantle code will be added to Frosbite, and hence bf4. Frosbite will be used by 15+ titles in 2014. And that's just one engine. Mantle will generate GCN gpu sales. It is self-fulfilling. People now have an extra excuse to upgrade. Emphasis on "extra". That's the point. The market realities of today are not important. It is the ones of tomorrow that matter.
Edited by SniperOct - 9/26/13 at 4:50pm
post #65 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperOct View Post

People now have an extra excuse to upgrade. Emphasis on "extra". That's the point.

Or do they? If Mantle boosts performance in Mantle games by 25%, say, wouldn't that let people who already have GCN cards use them a bit longer? Sure it might push people with 6xxx cards over to a new card, but if my 7870 just got a free 25% boost, it would make me less likely to buy a 280X, not more.
post #66 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Steam XP users are under 7%...

And still, even after some yers GCN will definitely be in the minority. Even if it jumped to half of all AMD graphics hardware in a year you would still only have around 16% marketshare.

Also games this gen are more easily ported anyways due to the consoles being x86. I do not think we are in any position to even suggest that using mantle is over 10 times cheaper than using directX for PC games.
The amount of GCN based GPUs isn't actually that big. Almost all the 7000 series GCN parts are listed individually and the 8000 OEM hasn't been shipping even nearly as long. So I don't think the 5% is that much of a stretch. Yes the real number is likely a tad more but that doesn't mean that 5% is completely invalid for the sorts of comparisons were making here. The concepts, stats etc. are simplified anyways, no need to be extremely accurate.

His XP point is not invalid. He was merely emphasizing that Steam survey skews in favor of old/low end hardware/software and that it is an extremely tainted pool when you are just going to substitute (PC gaming market) with (Steam stats). See my comments about Intel's IGPs being popular in Steam's stats.

You are right in that you don't need to be super accurate, but you aren't even trying to be. You're drawing sample stats from a non-representative pool, and then purposefully downplaying them even further to strengthen your claims.

As long as the number of GCN cards being used is significant (It is), the numbers are growing (they are), and users will continue to grow (they will), then Mantle has the potential to make an impact on the market.
Edited by trulsrohk - 9/26/13 at 4:58pm
Poison
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3820 @ 4.7 Sabertooth x79 Powercolor 6870x2 G Skill 2133 8gb 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Crucial m4 Noctua DH14 win7 64 ultimate HP 2511x 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
microsoft Sidewinder Enermax Modu 87+ 900 Asus GX800 none 
Audio
Yamaha RX-V955, B&W bookshelves and Infinity PS-8 
  hide details  
Reply
Poison
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3820 @ 4.7 Sabertooth x79 Powercolor 6870x2 G Skill 2133 8gb 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Crucial m4 Noctua DH14 win7 64 ultimate HP 2511x 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
microsoft Sidewinder Enermax Modu 87+ 900 Asus GX800 none 
Audio
Yamaha RX-V955, B&W bookshelves and Infinity PS-8 
  hide details  
Reply
post #67 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Or do they? If Mantle boosts performance in Mantle games by 25%, say, wouldn't that let people who already have GCN cards use them a bit longer? Sure it might push people with 6xxx cards over to a new card, but if my 7870 just got a free 25% boost, it would make me less likely to buy a 280X, not more.

You are missing the point. Aren't people saying that gcn-based cards are only used by a low percentage of gamers? Some have said +5%. If that's correct, then there is a -95% pool of consumers without gcn. They are potential buyers. That's Mantle's target.
post #68 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by trulsrohk View Post

Mantle has the potential to make a big impact on the market.

Potential, yes. Can they make everybody use it? Probably not.

Same thing for their HSA.

I don't think Mentle will be that useful unless it's somehow programmed into those ARM cores on board the GPU. Do the R9-290X have ARM cores on board or is it next gen?
Power Bac G5
(6 items)
 
  
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel i7 6950X EVGA GTX 1080 Ti GSkill 32GB 4133Mhz Samsung 960 Pro 1TB 
CoolingMonitor
Corsair H110i ASUS PG278Q 
  hide details  
Reply
Power Bac G5
(6 items)
 
  
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel i7 6950X EVGA GTX 1080 Ti GSkill 32GB 4133Mhz Samsung 960 Pro 1TB 
CoolingMonitor
Corsair H110i ASUS PG278Q 
  hide details  
Reply
post #69 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperOct View Post

You are missing the point. Aren't people saying that gcn-based cards are only used by a low percentage of gamers? Some have said +5%. If that's correct, then there is a -95% pool of consumers without gcn. They are potential buyers. That's Mantle's target.

Exactly the other side of the coin... if AMD can drive adoption of MANTLE by developers then their hardware will sell itself and start to saturate the market in order to take advantage of it
Poison
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3820 @ 4.7 Sabertooth x79 Powercolor 6870x2 G Skill 2133 8gb 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Crucial m4 Noctua DH14 win7 64 ultimate HP 2511x 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
microsoft Sidewinder Enermax Modu 87+ 900 Asus GX800 none 
Audio
Yamaha RX-V955, B&W bookshelves and Infinity PS-8 
  hide details  
Reply
Poison
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3820 @ 4.7 Sabertooth x79 Powercolor 6870x2 G Skill 2133 8gb 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Crucial m4 Noctua DH14 win7 64 ultimate HP 2511x 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
microsoft Sidewinder Enermax Modu 87+ 900 Asus GX800 none 
Audio
Yamaha RX-V955, B&W bookshelves and Infinity PS-8 
  hide details  
Reply
post #70 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by trulsrohk View Post

Exactly the other side of the coin... if AMD can drive adoption of MANTLE by developers then their hardware will sell itself and start to saturate the market in order to take advantage of it

correct. The challenge for AMD is getting the developers to adopt it. And as I noted above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperOct View Post

Two things of note to add to this discussion:

1) Mantle is something developers have been asking GPU manufactures to make available for years. They have been asking Consoles companies the same as well. they want easier ports and metal access. AMD's sales job won't be as hard as some are proclaiming.

2) The interesting part for AMD is not how many users will benefit from Mantle when it is released. Instead, it is how many users will buy GCN cards to get the benefits of console ports. The mantle code will be added to Frosbite, and hence bf4. Frosbite will be used by 15+ titles in 2014. And that's just one engine. Mantle will generate GCN gpu sales. It is self-fulfilling. People now have an extra excuse to upgrade. Emphasis on "extra". That's the point. The market realities of today are not important. It is the ones of tomorrow that matter.

Here is something else of note. Market share is very important. But it is not as important than, say, market share in Office software. The reason is that there is no license. Nvidia/AMD make money on outright sales. So when they introduce new tech/soft/hard the intention is for them to generate sales. So again, the focus is not the current market, but the future one.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [AT]Understanding AMD's Mantle