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Sub-Zero AIO Immersion?

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 
help a noob, I'm losing sleep over this... biggrin.gif

someone told me I can't put my computer inside a freezer, I understand this but when it comes to Novec wouldn't it be doable?

here's my idea for the "KELVINATOR" if it'll work I'll buy a lab freezer this weekend wink.gif


so they have these medical freezers which you can find abouts that range in to -40C° and -80C° category, there are models that go lower but they get pricey...

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now the Kelvinator will hit -40C° and we all know the special properties of Novec 7000, so I was thinking maybe 10 gallons of used Novec poured directly into this freezer like you see the liquid down in the corner of the picture here...

Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.||B2||T0JKX0lEPTRmNjc4MmQ3YTM0NzI0NjkwNGY2N2EzYzgwNWI5NTA1MDRmYjY2M2QzMDFjfHxTRUxMRVJfTkFNRT1lYWdsZWVsZWN0cm9uaWNzfHxPUklHSU5BTF9FQkFZX1FVQUxJVFlfU0NPUkU9NHx8Q1JFQVRJT05fREFURT05LzI2LzEzIDg6NDYgUE0=

insert motherboard and graphics card... plug in wall... chill to taste... boot to desktop!

heat build up wouldn't be too excessive if there was enough Novec inside to make a sizable buffer for the freezer components to remove the heat?

man this has to work, no? (simple, lotech and cheap if some used novec can be acquired)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kelvinator-Scientific-FGI-UC744-Freezer-/170909927121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
Edited by Butter Chicken - 9/27/13 at 7:42am
post #2 of 9
Hi BC, nice idea but I can see some problems...the fact that these units can get to a low temperature does not necessarily mean that they can deal with a large heat load.....do you know what the power rating of these units are?

If the heat production of your pc is greater than the cooling capacity of the cooling unit then of course it would be possible to cool down a large quantity of liquid which would have considerable heat buffering capacity but such a set up would only allow you to do a limited time length usage period during which your temps would increase. Also the expense of using a large enough quantity of Novec would probably be prohibitive.


Depending on the power rating of the cooling unit you may find that the units compressor would have to run for long periods of time following a pc usage session just in order to restore the temperature to low levels again.....this continual load on a small compressor would quite quickly burn it out.

First thing is to find out the cooling power/capacity of the unit.
post #3 of 9
Thread Starter 
cool... it's just a far flung idea... but I am getting the idea, got to ask questions somewhere.

I'l check into the ratings and I do know new Novec is prohibitive in quantity... but where there's a will, there's a way - (to find some used fluid)

but just the sheer size of that thing... it wouldn't cope with a 95w or less TDP with an iGPU mobo?
post #4 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butter Chicken View Post

help a noob, I'm losing sleep over this... biggrin.gif

someone told me I can't put my computer inside a freezer, I understand this but when it comes to Novec wouldn't it be doable?

here's my idea for the "KELVINATOR" if it'll work I'll buy a lab freezer this weekend wink.gif


so they have these medical freezers which you can find abouts that range in to -40C° and -80C° category, there are models that go lower but they get pricey...

Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.||B2||T0JKX0lEPTRmNjc4MmQ3YTg0NzI0NmYwNGY2N2M5ZmE3ZTdmMDA1MDRmYjY1NzNhNWJlfHxTRUxMRVJfTkFNRT1lYWdsZWVsZWN0cm9uaWNzfHxPUklHSU5BTF9FQkFZX1FVQUxJVFlfU0NPUkU9NHx8Q1JFQVRJT05fREFURT05LzI0LzEzIDE6NTggQU0=

Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.||B2||T0JKX0lEPTVjYTFhYjFlYTE0NzI0MTEwNGZjZmRmZGYxMTdlYTA1MDRmYjY1ZjZiNzE4fHxTRUxMRVJfTkFNRT1lYWdsZWVsZWN0cm9uaWNzfHxPUklHSU5BTF9FQkFZX1FVQUxJVFlfU0NPUkU9NHx8Q1JFQVRJT05fREFURT05LzI3LzEzIDY6NTggQU0=


now the Kelvinator will hit -40C° and we all know the special properties of Novec 7000, so I was thinking maybe 10 gallons of used Novec poured directly into this freezer like you see the liquid down in the corner of the picture here...

Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.||B2||T0JKX0lEPTRmNjc4MmQ3YTM0NzI0NjkwNGY2N2EzYzgwNWI5NTA1MDRmYjY2M2QzMDFjfHxTRUxMRVJfTkFNRT1lYWdsZWVsZWN0cm9uaWNzfHxPUklHSU5BTF9FQkFZX1FVQUxJVFlfU0NPUkU9NHx8Q1JFQVRJT05fREFURT05LzI2LzEzIDg6NDYgUE0=

insert motherboard and graphics card... plug in wall... chill to taste... boot to desktop!

heat build up wouldn't be too excessive if there was enough Novec inside to make a sizable buffer for the freezer components to remove the heat?

man this has to work, no? (simple, lotech and cheap if some used novec can be acquired)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kelvinator-Scientific-FGI-UC744-Freezer-/170909927121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butter Chicken View Post

cool... it's just a far flung idea... but I am getting the idea, got to ask questions somewhere.

I'l check into the ratings and I do know new Novec is prohibitive in quantity... but where there's a will, there's a way - (to find some used fluid)

but just the sheer size of that thing... it wouldn't cope with a 95w or less TDP with an iGPU mobo?

The fridge won't work, or at least I highly doubt it will. Usually fridges aren't designed for lengthy cooling cycles, and as a result the condenser, or the hot radiator as some call it, is just a bunch of copper tubes rewound on itself and is passively cooled. This means the cooling loop on the fridge isn't suited for cooling heatloads, as it isn't efficient at removing much heat. It works fine for a fridge because there is no active heatload in a fridge.

It would be IMMENSELY simpler (more simple?) to just get a fishtank, or build one, then insulate that. You could then get a tank with just enough space for your PC and nothing else. This would save money on the Novec. You could also buy an AC cooling unit capable of cooling a lot of heat, say around 15000BTUs, making sure the AC unit can achieve below 0 temps. For this you'd need to talk to a professional, or you could just pop into the phase change forums and the artisan forums and see if someone will make one for you. Submerge the Evap in the Novec. That would be much easier.


Since the Novec 7000 will be below 0 you will need fans to circulate the coolant, as it needs to reach 40 Celsius to evaporate and letting it reach that temp would be very counter productive to your intended design.
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post #5 of 9
Thread Starter 
so in these server systems they are not chilling the Novec after it flows out of the radiator and before it flows back into the server rack? http://www.iceotope.com/#science

I have been looking at in-line chillers that could be installed into a custom loop, some made or said to have been made from water fountain chillers... but this idea still brings condensation at below ambient, which is something I do not want to have to deal with and why I started looking looking into immersion in the first place..

immersion seems to be the only way to avoid insulation and I guess the cheapest way to get sub-zero if one was to insulate would be dice or ln2... but that is not a full time rig.

is it the best one could hope for is to get sub-ambient? even with a cryogenic freezer used in labs that was modified with a larger fan cooled condenser... (which I am sure these are fan cooled in design)

-in my neck of the woods, a refrigerator is designed to keep food at the lowest +5c°

a lab freezer is designed to store specimens and related materials down to -140c°

there's a big difference between a Cryo Freezer and a "refrigerator" in other words biggrin.gif
Edited by Butter Chicken - 9/27/13 at 4:51pm
post #6 of 9
You don't necessarily have to submerge to avoid condensation.....If you look at the details in my sig that was achieved using a chill box.....that is simply a completely sealed box with a cooling element inside...I used the cold rad (or evaporator) of a windows ac unit for that purpose...the cold temps in the box reduce the air humidity and condensation on your components isn't an issue....I used air cooled components inside mine which wasn't as efficient as I'd have liked but still got to 5.5ghz on my 2700k sandybridge.
A more efficient way would be to construct a water loop within the chill box...obviously with anti freeze in it.....you would get some real nice temps there without all the expense of Novec.
post #7 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butter Chicken View Post

so in these server systems they are not chilling the Novec after it flows out of the radiator and before it flows back into the server rack? http://www.iceotope.com/#science

I have been looking at in-line chillers that could be installed into a custom loop, some made or said to have been made from water fountain chillers... but this idea still brings condensation at below ambient, which is something I do not want to have to deal with and why I started looking looking into immersion in the first place..

immersion seems to be the only way to avoid insulation and I guess the cheapest way to get sub-zero if one was to insulate would be dice or ln2... but that is not a full time rig.

is it the best one could hope for is to get sub-ambient? even with a cryogenic freezer used in labs that was modified with a larger fan cooled condenser... (which I am sure these are fan cooled in design)

-in my neck of the woods, a refrigerator is designed to keep food at the lowest +5c°

a lab freezer is designed to store specimens and related materials down to -140c°

there's a big difference between a Cryo Freezer and a "refrigerator" in other words biggrin.gif

Best way to get sub-ambient without needing to worry about condensation would be peltiers. Since the cold is only at the source you're cooling it's easy to insulate the everliving frack out of it, while simultaneously remaining in a slim form factor.

Krow is also working on a dewpoint proximity controller. Basically you plug you TEC and a few temp probes and a humidity probe into the controller, then plug the controller into a power source, and it will keep the coldside of the peltier at 1Celcius above the local dew point. Foxrena also has a voltage controller, but I forget if he's selling them right now.

Or, again, you could insulate the everliving frack out of it. Both are easy enough to do on an ATX MoBo.

Drawbacks of TECs are:
not very efficient at power consumed to heat cooled ratio.
Requires a powerful APU (Auxiliary Power Supply) for optimal performance.
Needs to either be insulated very well or require a dewpoint proximity controller.

Advantages:
Sub-ambient cooling with a VERY small form factor.
Easily insulated
Completely silent at 0dBA (You do need to cool the peltier, so whatever you're using to cool it may produce noise, but the peltier itself does not)
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post #8 of 9
Thread Starter 
this is exactly what I am thinking I am going to do now... all the sudden like I am looking at cpu blocks for a starting point on a custom loop. I figure the Novec is for naught as I been searching awhile for a used source, no luck.

we American's aren't the kind to give up though... when someone says it can't be done, that is our driving force smile.gif the more pessimistic the naysayers become the harder we strive to achieve thumb.gif

I already have one of theses... (oil cooler)



brand new in a box from a Mercedes 300D resto project a few years back, it's just been sitting in the shop so I figure I can put it to use by immersing it in a type of antifreeze solution down inside a TEC box or in one of the chest style deep freezers I already have in the garage.

I can then tie it into a custom loop somehow I'm sure. and if I insulate the hoses well with a good fan directed at the cpu area condensation should be minimal or non existent?

if I tie that radiator into a custom loop then just submerging it in a cooled solution should be all it needs correct?
Edited by Butter Chicken - 9/27/13 at 10:28pm
post #9 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by technogiant View Post

You don't necessarily have to submerge to avoid condensation.....If you look at the details in my sig that was achieved using a chill box.....that is simply a completely sealed box with a cooling element inside...I used the cold rad (or evaporator) of a windows ac unit for that purpose...the cold temps in the box reduce the air humidity and condensation on your components isn't an issue....I used air cooled components inside mine which wasn't as efficient as I'd have liked but still got to 5.5ghz on my 2700k sandybridge.
A more efficient way would be to construct a water loop within the chill box...obviously with anti freeze in it.....you would get some real nice temps there without all the expense of Novec.


^^^

Just saw this. This is also a good idea if you don't mind putting your PC in an isolated chamber. Condensation will only form on SURFACES lower than the ambient temp (more specifically lower than the local dew point.) Since an AC unit produces cooled air, the surfaces within the chamber will never be colder than the air in the chamber, the AC will also act as a dehumidifier removing moisture in the air.

This does require an isolated chamber, which means quite a bit of hard labor and sacrificing the option for looks.
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