Overclock.net › Forums › Graphics Cards › Graphics Cards - General › [polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says - Page 12

post #111 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlasov_581 View Post

good! wth.gif

Lol i love your emotions response biggrin.gif:D:D
Workstation
(4 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsMonitor
Xeon E5-2690 Supermicro 2011 Nvidia GP100/ Vega FE Dell ultrasharp 4k 
  hide details  
Reply
Workstation
(4 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsMonitor
Xeon E5-2690 Supermicro 2011 Nvidia GP100/ Vega FE Dell ultrasharp 4k 
  hide details  
Reply
post #112 of 148
Was thinking of a semi relatable real world example. Remember MS antitrust litigation in the EU regarding bundling IE with windows? This is somewhat similar. Because AMD is already making the hardware that runs the consoles (analogous to microsoft already making the OS that users have), AMD supports mantle on both consoles and PC (much like ms bundling internet explorer with ms). Even though the choice is still available, one is already implemented, and to make things harder to swallow, unlike the IE debacle AMD's leaves the competition with (potentially if the gains are that great) no way to compete.

You guys make the (weak) claim that it's just business as usual, but that's what the big telecoms said about acquiring one another to become a larger entity better able to address the needs of consumers. It's what Standard Oil claimed back in the day when they went around snatching up all the big oil producers of the time to make one of the largest monopolies in history. This move COULD effectively kill off nvidia if it's that big a boost, and a boost that nvidia couldn't possibly match. It doesn't leave for fair competition at all as nvidia cannot make the same low level code and be guaranteed that developers will use it because the only reason developers WOULD be using it is because it's implemented on both consoles, which is where the majority of AAA pc games come from to start with. If you still don't see where this is coming from in this light then all I can say is I guess we'll see what happens when it all gets moving and we find out how much of a boost it will provide and how many devs will jump on board.

Also full disclosure again I know the MS example isn't perfectly analogous, but I do believe there are parallels to be drawn.
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #113 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

Hasn't killed ATI or AMD over the years so this is just wrong.


Sounds like AMD is getting it right this time around. $1000 for a GPU was stupid to begin with.
No body want's Nvidia gone and they aren't going anywhere. Plus if they do Intel can pick up the slack...they should already be a major player, don't know what they're waiting for myself.
This is just stupid. AMD would never charge $1000-2000 for a GPU just because there wouldn't be any major competition around. Come on man. Wow...just wow...

Intel pick up the slack when AMD has dominance in PC graphics because of Mantle being easy for ports from AMD's GCN architecture? How does Intel even factor in here? They haven't been able to compete on OpenGL or DirectX to this point. It's not worth it to them. Why is it suddenly worth it when it is even more difficult?

What makes AMD incapable of charging $1000 if they have no competition? Nvidia did this and sold cards with competition. AMD is not out to help you, as you said, they're in a business. If they can sell top cards for $1000 or more they will do it. It's never easier than when they have no competition. If they don't charge $1000 for top cards, say hello to 5% performance improvements per year just like Intel's Sandy -> Ivy -> Haswell.

Maybe Nvidia won't be gone, but it will be like Intel is to AMD in the CPU space today. I have an Intel CPU, do I like that Intel's complete dominance makes CPU performance only crawl forward? No.
Edited by TooBAMF - 9/27/13 at 5:53pm
Main Rig 2015
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 5820K @ 4.7GHz Asus X99-E WS 3.1 GTX Titan X @ 1463/3900 1.25v 4 x 8GB G.Skill DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
400GB Intel 750 Series NVMe 5TB WD Black LG 14x BDXL Writer NZXT Kraken X60 280mm 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 64 Arch Linux Dell 3008WFP Dell 2407WFP 
KeyboardCaseMouseMouse Pad
Logitech G15 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Razer Mamba 2012 Razer Destructor 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD598 Black Asus Xonar STX 
  hide details  
Reply
Main Rig 2015
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 5820K @ 4.7GHz Asus X99-E WS 3.1 GTX Titan X @ 1463/3900 1.25v 4 x 8GB G.Skill DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
400GB Intel 750 Series NVMe 5TB WD Black LG 14x BDXL Writer NZXT Kraken X60 280mm 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 64 Arch Linux Dell 3008WFP Dell 2407WFP 
KeyboardCaseMouseMouse Pad
Logitech G15 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Razer Mamba 2012 Razer Destructor 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD598 Black Asus Xonar STX 
  hide details  
Reply
post #114 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

Was thinking of a semi relatable real world example. Remember MS antitrust litigation in the EU regarding bundling IE with windows? This is somewhat similar. Because AMD is already making the hardware that runs the consoles (analogous to microsoft already making the OS that users have), AMD supports mantle on both consoles and PC (much like ms bundling internet explorer with ms). Even though the choice is still available, one is already implemented, and to make things harder to swallow, unlike the IE debacle AMD's leaves the competition with (potentially if the gains are that great) no way to compete.

You guys make the (weak) claim that it's just business as usual, but that's what the big telecoms said about acquiring one another to become a larger entity better able to address the needs of consumers. It's what Standard Oil claimed back in the day when they went around snatching up all the big oil producers of the time to make one of the largest monopolies in history. This move COULD effectively kill off nvidia if it's that big a boost, and a boost that nvidia couldn't possibly match. It doesn't leave for fair competition at all as nvidia cannot make the same low level code and be guaranteed that developers will use it because the only reason developers WOULD be using it is because it's implemented on both consoles, which is where the majority of AAA pc games come from to start with. If you still don't see where this is coming from in this light then all I can say is I guess we'll see what happens when it all gets moving and we find out how much of a boost it will provide and how many devs will jump on board.

Also full disclosure again I know the MS example isn't perfectly analogous, but I do believe there are parallels to be drawn.

So you're not OK with the fact that the Titan 30-40% faster than the 7970? Where are your comments about this that shows your distaste towards Nvidia because of their dominance over AMD currently? I'll wait.
post #115 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

So you're not OK with the fact that the Titan 30-40% faster than the 7970? Where are your comments about this that shows your distaste towards Nvidia because of their dominance over AMD currently? I'll wait.

Sure, because it was a pure performance boost. They didn't do it by leveraging their dominance in some other segment to bring it, they did it through pure R&D and that's it. They're no way comparable. What's more is your comparing previous gen to current gen, while this debate would moreso revolve around current vs current gen.
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #116 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

So you're not OK with the fact that the Titan 30-40% faster than the 7970? Where are your comments about this that shows your distaste towards Nvidia because of their dominance over AMD currently? I'll wait.

Nvidia's dominance was ok because it was in hardware using the same APIs that AMD could use. I expected AMD to release faster hardware through a refresh. Now we have a case where Nvidia's refresh might not even be able to compete with AMD because games are coded for AMD. Games are not going to be coded for Nvidia because doing so would be more difficult because Nvidia Kepler GPUs are not in the new consoles.
Main Rig 2015
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 5820K @ 4.7GHz Asus X99-E WS 3.1 GTX Titan X @ 1463/3900 1.25v 4 x 8GB G.Skill DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
400GB Intel 750 Series NVMe 5TB WD Black LG 14x BDXL Writer NZXT Kraken X60 280mm 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 64 Arch Linux Dell 3008WFP Dell 2407WFP 
KeyboardCaseMouseMouse Pad
Logitech G15 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Razer Mamba 2012 Razer Destructor 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD598 Black Asus Xonar STX 
  hide details  
Reply
Main Rig 2015
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 5820K @ 4.7GHz Asus X99-E WS 3.1 GTX Titan X @ 1463/3900 1.25v 4 x 8GB G.Skill DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
400GB Intel 750 Series NVMe 5TB WD Black LG 14x BDXL Writer NZXT Kraken X60 280mm 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 64 Arch Linux Dell 3008WFP Dell 2407WFP 
KeyboardCaseMouseMouse Pad
Logitech G15 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Razer Mamba 2012 Razer Destructor 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD598 Black Asus Xonar STX 
  hide details  
Reply
post #117 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

If you read my post you'd see that I was ok with Nvidia's dominance because it was in hardware using the same APIs that AMD could use. I expected AMD to release faster hardware through a refresh. Now we have a case where Nvidia's refresh might not even be able to compete with AMD because games are coded for AMD. Games are not going to be coded for Nvidia because doing so would be more difficult because Nvidia Kepler GPUs are not in the new consoles.

Just a bit of a correction to this, it's not that it's more difficult, it's that it's more expensive with less returns. Using low level code like mantle from AMD would be spread across the budget for both the consoles AND PC segment, while using nvapi would be entirely on the PC segment, which traditionally is also the one that generates less revenues to start with.
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
Project Taco
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770k Z87 G1 Sniper 5 EVGA 780 TI Classified EVGA 780 TI Classified 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
Avexir Core Series 4x4GB White Samsung 840 EVO Corsair H100i Noiseblocker eLoops 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 QNIX QX2710 QNIX QX2710 KBT Pure MX Whites 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA Supernova 1000W Gold NZXT H440 Func MS-3 O2/ODAC 
Audio
MrSpeakers Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP Mod) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #118 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

The same way every company does when their competitor makes a better product then them...either adapt or die. What are you not understanding here? The Titan was 30-40% faster than the 7970...where were you with all this anger when that happened? Where were you with all your, "HOW DARE Nvidia make a faster GPU than AMD!!!". Oh...you weren't? Because that didn't effect your Nvidia biased then? Oh OK...

This is called BUSINESS. AMD has no secret contract that says they must not exceed "x" amount of power over Nvidia. They're in the business of making the BEST PRODUCT THEY CAN. If that product so happens to be a $600 video card that is 30% faster than Nvidia's $1000 card THEN SO BE IT!

I don't see you getting mad at Intel for being faster than AMD CPU's or mad at Ferrari for being faster than Kia. You're argument is moot.

AMEN
post #119 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

Sure, because it was a pure performance boost. They didn't do it by leveraging their dominance in some other segment to bring it, they did it through pure R&D and that's it. They're no way comparable. What's more is your comparing previous gen to current gen, while this debate would moreso revolve around current vs current gen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Nvidia's dominance was ok because it was in hardware using the same APIs that AMD could use. I expected AMD to release faster hardware through a refresh. Now we have a case where Nvidia's refresh might not even be able to compete with AMD because games are coded for AMD. Games are not going to be coded for Nvidia because doing so would be more difficult because Nvidia Kepler GPUs are not in the new consoles.

As I said before:

This is called BUSINESS. AMD has no secret contract that says they must not exceed "x" amount of power over Nvidia. They're in the business of making the BEST PRODUCT THEY CAN. If that product so happens to be a $600 video card that is 30% faster than Nvidia's $1000 card THEN SO BE IT!

That's all that matters. Android OUT!
post #120 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Nvidia's dominance was ok because it was in hardware using the same APIs that AMD could use. I expected AMD to release faster hardware through a refresh. Now we have a case where Nvidia's refresh might not even be able to compete with AMD because games are coded for AMD. Games are not going to be coded for Nvidia because doing so would be more difficult because Nvidia Kepler GPUs are not in the new consoles.

Mantle will be an open platform that nvidia can adopt if they so choose (unlike PHYSX, which AMD users suffer with in any game that uses it). AMD is only trying to progress the gaming industry as a whole and make the PC market efficient to the leve that conosles are with the hardware you are given. If you can make a game 30% faster for the same hardware, then why not? Progression is good! This has relevance with the processor market, where intel is stuck with 4 core processors that have exceptional single threaded performance while AMD sufferes with their multithreaded focused processors. progression needs to happen for the betterment of us all!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Graphics Cards - General
Overclock.net › Forums › Graphics Cards › Graphics Cards - General › [polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says