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[polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says - Page 13

post #121 of 148
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post #122 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

Alright I'm not sure why people can't understand my point so I'm going to summarize it super simple like with this question:

If manufacturer a has a new method that allows for 30% peformance improvements for ALL their cards across the board on new games as a result of the fact that they added a new form of code that all game users are using (as a result of console exclusivity) WHICH CANNOT be implemented onto the competition nor emulated in a manner that allows them to still be competitive in pricing or financial sustainability, how does the second company continue to exist in the market?

Simple answer?

They are forced to innovate or drop prices.

Why are we against NVIDIA being forced to adapt to a different market?
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post #123 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by trulsrohk View Post

Simple answer?

They are forced to innovate or drop prices.

Why are we against NVIDIA being forced to adapt to a different market?

My question is how would they adapt? I seriously doubt it can be through faster GPUs because they can only make refreshes and die shrinks go so far. Nvidia cannot leverage an API like AMD can because of AMD's console dominance.

If someone can speculate on how Nvidia would realistically do this without a magic never before seen jump in hardware efficiency that can overcome AMD's hardware and software gains, I will concede some of my points. AMD did not do this with hardware, they simply matched Nvidia in hardware and added in software. Great for AMD, how is Nvidia going to do that with just hardware? What is their software angle?

I stress that I'm not saying AMD should let Nvidia match it, or that Nvidia is smart for not doing what AMD did, but it isn't good for consumers so why should we act like it is? Nobody here praises Intel for 5% gains over Ivy after Ivy was only 5% over Sandy. Nvidia may not go away, but if they end up like AMD is in CPUs, enthusiasts will be worse of because of Mantle.
Edited by TooBAMF - 9/27/13 at 7:29pm
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post #124 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

My question is how would they adapt? I seriously doubt it can be through faster GPUs because they can only make refreshes and die shrinks go so far. Nvidia cannot leverage an API like AMD can because of AMD's console dominance.

If someone can speculate on how Nvidia would realistically do this without a magic never before seen jump in hardware efficiency that can overcome AMD's hardware and software gains, I will concede some of my points. AMD did not do this with hardware, they simply matched Nvidia in hardware and added in software. Great for AMD, how is Nvidia going to do that with just hardware? What is their software angle?

I stress that I'm not saying AMD should let Nvidia match it, or that Nvidia is smart for not doing what AMD did, but it isn't good for consumers so why should we act like it is? Nobody here praises Intel for 5% gains over Ivy after Ivy was only 5% over Sandy. Nvidia may not go away, but if they end up like AMD is in CPUs, enthusiasts will be worse of because of Mantle.

Just like with physx, this wont be a product adopted by every game developer, so Nvidia will stil be relevant in many games. And I dont understand how this isnt good for consumers....better performance from efficiency? Progression should be praised, not resisted...
post #125 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DampMonkey View Post

Mantle will be an open platform that nvidia can adopt if they so choose (unlike PHYSX, which AMD users suffer with in any game that uses it). AMD is only trying to progress the gaming industry as a whole and make the PC market efficient to the leve that conosles are with the hardware you are given. If you can make a game 30% faster for the same hardware, then why not? Progression is good! This has relevance with the processor market, where intel is stuck with 4 core processors that have exceptional single threaded performance while AMD sufferes with their multithreaded focused processors. progression needs to happen for the betterment of us all!
Technically on the Physix part, it is because AMD didn't want to pay for it. And maybe because of laws or future litigation Nvidia allows its use to CPU in a way that is less advantageous yet not excluded.
post #126 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DampMonkey View Post

Just like with physx, this wont be a product adopted by every game developer, so Nvidia will stil be relevant in many games. And I dont understand how this isnt good for consumers....better performance from efficiency? Progression should be praised, not resisted...

It will always be resisted by those of which their products or favorite brands will be harmed. If homeboy above was a AMD user you wouldn't be hearing this stuff from him despite him saying otherwise.

He doesn't like the fact that the underdog might raise from the ashes and stomp his precious infallible company of choice.

News flash TooBAMF...AMD is in both next-gen consoles...Nvidia isn't. AMD is using this to their advantage. Blame Nvidia for being too greedy and money hungry and not wanting a part of next-gen. Now it's coming back to bite them in their...*ahem*...rear ends.

AMD has the upper hand. You don't like it. Just admit it.
post #127 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Technically on the Physix part, it is because AMD didn't want to pay for it. And maybe because of laws or future litigation Nvidia allows its use to CPU in a way that is less advantageous yet not excluded.

Nvidia wanted AMD to pay just so they could use the CPU as the physx processor.
Nvidia never once offered to make physx run nativly on AMD hardware.

Physx is Cuda and would have to be ported to OpenCL for AMD to use it, something Nvidia has no interest in doing.


While I love Both Nvidia and AMD, I kinda wish Mantle takes off. Nvidia needs a taste of its own medicine and needs to learn that propitiatory software only slows down progress.
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post #128 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

While I love Both Nvidia and AMD, I kinda wish Mantle takes off. Nvidia needs a taste of its own medicine and needs to learn that propitiatory software only slows down progress.

Thing is though is that Mantle is open source and free for Nvidia to use. Don't know the benefits if any...but just like with TressFX leave it to AMD to at least let the competitor have the ability to use their stuff while Nvidia just screams "NO IT'S MINE YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!"...

That's the difference here. Nvidia never seemed to learn that sharing is caring.
post #129 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

The same way every company does when their competitor makes a better product then them...either adapt or die. What are you not understanding here? The Titan was 30-40% faster than the 7970...where were you with all this anger when that happened? Where were you with all your, "HOW DARE Nvidia make a faster GPU than AMD!!!". Oh...you weren't? Because that didn't effect your Nvidia biased then? Oh OK...

This is called BUSINESS. AMD has no secret contract that says they must not exceed "x" amount of power over Nvidia. They're in the business of making the BEST PRODUCT THEY CAN. If that product so happens to be a $600 video card that is 30% faster than Nvidia's $1000 card THEN SO BE IT!

I don't see you getting mad at Intel for being faster than AMD CPU's or mad at Ferrari for being faster than Kia. You're argument is moot.

But that's the thing, it's not making a faster gpu. It's taking your possibly technically inferior product and using a low level API to take advantage over the competition who is forced to use the likely much less efficient high level API. Is this really that hard to understand? Yes, nvidia has their own API but they have no way to push it like AMD will be able to with console ports and the like.

Intel cpu's are faster than AMD cpu's because they have a far larger R&D budget and have far better manufacturing processes, the two can not be compared at all as intel DOES have the technically more advanced product.
Edited by scyy - 9/27/13 at 8:23pm
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post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

Thing is though is that Mantle is open source and free for Nvidia to use. Don't know the benefits if any...but just like with TressFX leave it to AMD to at least let the competitor have the ability to use their stuff while Nvidia just screams "NO IT'S MINE YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!"...

That's the difference here. Nvidia never seemed to learn that sharing is caring.

Still even with Mantle, I don't think Nvidia could have it as optimized as well as it is for GCN.
Would still be bad thing for them if they can't find away to get the same performance boosts out of mantle, Especially when AMD tends to be more efficient on die size mm^2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post

But that's the thing, it's not making a faster gpu. It's taking your possibly technically inferior product and using a low level API to take advantage over the competition who is forced to use the likely much less efficient high level API. Is this really that hard to understand? Yes, nvidia has their own API but they have no way to push it like AMD will be able to with console ports and the like.

Intel cpu's are faster than AMD cpu's because they have a far larger R&D budget and have far better manufacturing processes, the two can not be compared at all as intel DOES have the technically more advanced product.

Nvidia only has a faster GPU because of the Huge Die size
AMD would have no problem destroying Nvidia on a performance level if they made a chip that big. Though AMD is no interest in making a die that size.


AMD is a bigger Company then Nvidia and produce a lot more chips, Nvidia just has a bigger slice of the GPU market.
Edited by DzillaXx - 9/27/13 at 8:29pm
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