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[polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says - Page 7

post #61 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by roofrider View Post

AMD is doing this because the consoles are powered by AMD parts.
You think Nvidia will come with it's own API and ask the devs to make use of it instead of Mantle for the AMD hardware that's present in these consoles?

Again, we have no clue how Nvidia is going to respond to Mantle.

And you honestly think that Microsoft is going to sit back and allow AMD to dictate TO THEM that they are going to have to use Mantle on the XBox One, a system that if properly done and adopted by AMD/nVidia/Intel and will run on Consoles/Windows/Linux will in effect totally DESTROY the MICROSOFT DirectX monopoly?

Really?
post #62 of 148
Microsoft doesn't care about direct X

the only way that they will care is if it starts effecting os market share. and trust me, even if we all go linux it's a drop in the bucket
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post #63 of 148
I can't see nvidia adopting mantle, it's locked to GCN. What does Intel have to do with this? Games/Engines will still use DirectX! How else will those games work on nvidia machines if they are going Mantle only?!!

Or are you talking 3+ years into the future?
post #64 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Maybe I'm Jelly and maybe GCN owners or prospective buyers are blinded by the short term benefits Mantle might provide.

Mantle looks like a solution to AMD's GCN not quite being able to compete in raw performance with GK110. I'd rather AMD released GCN at higher clocks with more shaders because that would benefit every PC game. Mantle as it stands will benefit one game 2 months after launch. It will probably benefit more games later on but it is still work around to the real issue.

At the same time, if Mantle provides huge benefits and Nvidia can't benefit from it as well, that workaround suddenly becomes very threatening to competition. All of this because AMD couldn't deliver on the hardware side when Nvidia could. Mantle has absolutely nothing to do with the 290X, it has everything to do with behind the scenes deals with developers and AMD's dominance in the console space.

Or perhaps it was because Nvidia was too short-sighted to see the advantages of winning the bid for console graphics?

Remember, it was too "low margin" and "not worth their time", etc (which admittedly was probably just butthurt BS because they lost the bid). This is just a very efficient use of AMD's resources when you think about it, in more than one way. Firstly, the GPU hardware they've developed will better utilized, as well as the manpower of their R&D department who have had their hands full with console gpu design,etc.
post #65 of 148
Again, still waiting to see if Mantle actually can be adopted by Nvidia.

Nobody here wants Nvidia to exit high end PC graphics in 5 years because everything new uses Mantle. If it is as great as the supposedly objective supporters believe it is, that's what will happen. If it's not, then OK, it's a little more similar to PhysX and just AMD's way of differentiating their platform. Mantle supporters seem to have been won over by AMD's "open-source" pledge. If PhysX had been an open platform, there would be no PhysX vs Mantle talk. Unfortunately, Nvidia may not be able to use Mantle so why would it matter that it's open? Only to make people feel like it's not so bad when it actually might be.

I've seen speculation that everything Frostbite 3 will use it, and future Cryengine games. That's a pretty big chunk considering the number of games using those engines. PhysX was extra eye candy. This is a software solution to what is traditionally solved by hardware and it might be limited to AMD and entrenched for the next 7 years because of the console cycle.

If the 7970 turns out to be just as fast as a 780 in BF4, that's only good for 7970 owners. Nvidia simply cannot compete with that no matter how great their engineers are or how far they lower prices. Yeah, let's squeeze another 40-50% out out of GK110 which from a hardware perspective looks superior to GCN but not from a price perspective. If not, selling Titan level GPUs for less than $300 and not being able to improve until a die shrink but still having to overcome the Mantle software advantage? That is not fanboyism, I'm sorry.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foolsmasher View Post

Or perhaps it was because Nvidia was too short-sighted to see the advantages of winning the bid for console graphics?

Remember, it was too "low margin" and "not worth their time", etc (which admittedly was probably just butthurt BS because they lost the bid). This is just a very efficient use of AMD's resources when you think about it, in more than one way. Firstly, the GPU hardware they've developed will better utilized, as well as the manpower of their R&D department who have had their hands full with console gpu design,etc.

OK, Nvidia dropped the ball. Let's celebrate on their future exit from PC graphics and bow to our new AMD overlords doing the same price gouging people hate Nvidia for doing now, except there won't be the expectation of Nvidia's future eqivalent of a savior 290X esque GPU.

A hardware solution is superior because it benefits ALL games, not just some games in the future.
Edited by TooBAMF - 9/27/13 at 1:47pm
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post #66 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

Game uses Physx = Nvidia fans going "WOOT WOOT WOOT!"

Game uses Mantle = Nvidia fans going "Oh this is horrible and will cause a rift between PC gmarers, etc."

That's what I see here.

Physx = game features being completely absent for AMD users where as Mantle = extra performance for AMD users and nothing else.

Now, granted, I don't like proprietary stuff in general but just because a game has Mantle support doesn't mean that Nvidia users are missing out on anything. You can still happily use Direct X or OpenGL. Nothing changes for you. You aren't missing out on cool extras like better post processing or physics effects like everyone else that isn't an Nvidia user is.

With Mantle it only offers an easier and more direct path to the GCN hardware, thus improving performance. That's is it.

In the end I don't see the issue here other than proprietary API's which, again, doesn't really effect how a game works or plays for Nvidia/Intel unlike something like Physx which does.

Move along Nvidia fan boys...nothing to see here...

Was going to write a wall but this basically said everything i wanted to say. thumb.gif
    
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post #67 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Again, still waiting to see if Mantle actually can be adopted by Nvidia.

Nobody here wants Nvidia to exit high end PC graphics in 5 years because everything new uses Mantle. If it is as great as the supposedly objective supporters believe it is, that's what will happen. If it's not, then OK, it's a little more similar to PhysX and just AMD's way of differentiating their platform. Mantle supporters seem to have been won over by AMD's "open-source" pledge. If PhysX had been an open platform, there would be no PhysX vs Mantle talk. Unfortunately, Nvidia may not be able to use Mantle so why would it matter that it's open? Only to make people feel like it's not so bad when it actually might be.

I've seen speculation that everything Frostbite 3 will use it, and future Cryengine games. That's a pretty big chunk considering the number of games using those engines. PhysX was extra eye candy. This is a software solution to what is traditionally solved by hardware and it might be limited to AMD and entrenched for the next 7 years because of the console cycle.

If the 7970 turns out to be just as fast as a 780 in BF4, that's only good for 7970 owners. Nvidia simply cannot compete with that no matter how great their engineers are or how far they lower prices. Yeah, let's squeeze another 40-50% out out of GK110 which from a hardware perspective looks superior to GCN but not from a price perspective. If not, selling Titan level GPUs for less than $300 and not being able to improve until a die shrink but still having to overcome the Mantle software advantage? That is not fanboyism, I'm sorry.

Edit:
OK, Nvidia dropped the ball. Let's celebrate on their future exit from PC graphics and bow to our new AMD overlords doing the same price gouging people hate Nvidia for doing now, except there won't be the expectation of Nvidia's future eqivalent of a savior 290X esque GPU.

In a thread of back and forth bickering and stupid arguing, finally a somewhat sensical viewpoint, rep for that.

There's a lot of potential truth to his statements though. That said, NVAPI has been out since 2011 and hasn't been very heavily utilized from what I've seen. I can see nvidia reworking/improving it as a way to compete.
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post #68 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post

It's funny because that's the exactly whats happened except in reverse. Now the people complaining about closed have no problem with it. I have no problem with mantle. I have my doubt's of how wide spread it will be but I'm not against it.

See I don't see that. I'm against closed anything in general but in the case of Mantle I really don't see it as being "closed" in the average sense.

Not like PC games are going to come out with ONLY Mantle support. They'll still have API's like Direct X or OpenGL so everyone will still be able to play all PC games.

Physx on the other hand is closed, sure, but it ADD'S things to games that non-Nvidia uses can't access.

So as I said above:

Mantle = Adds performance and nothing else while NOT limiting a games use to non-AMD users.

Physx = Adds physics and other graphic effects while LIMITING features to non-Nvidia users.

So to me there is a fundamental difference. Again though I don't like closed off anything so I can't say I agree with Mantle and would much rather Direct X and OpenGL becoming more streamlined and efficient more than anytinhg. However having said that if AMD can do something for AMD users that DOESN'T hurt non-AMD users with things like effects and physics then I really don't see the big deal over all.
post #69 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

Mantle = Adds performance and nothing else while NOT limiting a games use to non-AMD users.

No, but why would you buy Nvidia GPUs? Yeah, anyone with an Nvidia GPU can play the game, but if most customers are interested in playing the latest games and even AMD's cheaper cards outpace Nvidia's high end, why buy them? I'm speculating on the performance of Mantle, if it's not more than 20%, I don't see too much of a problem with it. Anything more and people wouldn't game on Nvidia GPUs just like most serious gamers don't game on dual core CPUs anymore even though the games run.
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post #70 of 148
You know I was thinking about it, I wonder if this would be considered anticompetitive practice at all legally. No this isn't because I'm a fanboy (I've used both sides of the pond extensively), but take a look at tooBAMFs post earlier:
Quote:
Nobody here wants Nvidia to exit high end PC graphics in 5 years because everything new uses Mantle. If it is as great as the supposedly objective supporters believe it is, that's what will happen. If it's not, then OK, it's a little more similar to PhysX and just AMD's way of differentiating their platform. Mantle supporters seem to have been won over by AMD's "open-source" pledge. If PhysX had been an open platform, there would be no PhysX vs Mantle talk. Unfortunately, Nvidia may not be able to use Mantle so why would it matter that it's open? Only to make people feel like it's not so bad when it actually might be.

I've seen speculation that everything Frostbite 3 will use it, and future Cryengine games. That's a pretty big chunk considering the number of games using those engines. PhysX was extra eye candy. This is a software solution to what is traditionally solved by hardware and it might be limited to AMD and entrenched for the next 7 years because of the console cycle.

If the 7970 turns out to be just as fast as a 780 in BF4, that's only good for 7970 owners. Nvidia simply cannot compete with that no matter how great their engineers are or how far they lower prices. Yeah, let's squeeze another 40-50% out out of GK110 which from a hardware perspective looks superior to GCN but not from a price perspective. If not, selling Titan level GPUs for less than $300 and not being able to improve until a die shrink but still having to overcome the Mantle software advantage? That is not fanboyism, I'm sorry.

Considering that this would give a (potentially) significant competitive advantage to AMD that NVIDIA couldn't match, I feel as though it could be argued legally as being a monopolistic move. Think of it this way:

Imagine that the implementation of mantle gives an x% increase in performance to AMD cards vs Nvidia (assume 30% for fun). Further consider how many games are made using frostbite and cryengine today (a fairly large amount, with a good deal of the rest going to the unreal engine). Since AMD is leveraging the fact that they won the bid on BOTH major consoles for apu implementation, they've basically captured all the console ports and the games based on that engine. All of a sudden buyers are given two options:

Buy a card from AMD, where across the board vs it's competition it's 30% faster for these games at the same or (traditionally) somewhat lower price point OR

Buy a card from Nvidia, where across the board they're 30% slower and priced the same or slightly higher

How could nvidia possibly compete? Some will say then they should release their own version of mantle (which they already have, it's called nvapi, though for reasons I don't know it isn't heavily utilized). Even if they were to improve it a lot, what's pushing developers to use it? They already by default will most likely use mantle because all consoles have access to it, and it already has pc equivalent hardware that makes use of it. The argument there from the opposition I imagine would be well they want to capture as many sales as possible, so they'll do it for both. But who's to say that would happen? I would see them more likely leave it be and watch the market share for nvidia dwindle until the majority is on AMD and gg.

Another way people would argue that they could compete is by pushing much more powerful hardware. Unfortunately more powerful hardware means higher prices and lower margins to offset the increased costs, making the gap even harder to swallow for consumers when choosing between amd and nvidia.

I'm not saying I see this as definitely being the outcome or definitely being legally sound, but it brings some interesting conclusions with it.
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