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[polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says - Page 9

post #81 of 148
If Mantle provides a benefit less than 20%, It's sort of similar to PhysX in that it differentiates cards at the same price point. If it provides more than 20% and becomes widely used, it makes Nvidia cards obsolete at any price point and AMD has a monopoly.

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post #82 of 148
wait, so if it turns out to be something big, like the difference will be very noticeable, will we now effectively condone to dumbing/slowing down tech for market share's sake?
    
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post #83 of 148
All I want to see is OpenGL take off and DX lose it's iron grip on gaming. Now THAT would be something for everybody to look forward to; not gimmicky proprietary things like Mantle, PhysX, and DX from a purely software standpoint.
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post #84 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlasov_581 View Post

wait, so if it turns out to be something big, like the difference will be very noticeable, will we now effectively condone to dumbing/slowing down tech for market share's sake?

Yes, when it has the potential to create a monopoly. If Nvidia is out of the picture, AMD's graphics hardware tech will slow down way more than it would have if Mantle was skipped. People act like I'm a fanboy when they're cheering for AMD to destroy Nvidia. Even if Nvidia screwed up by not making Mantle, we don't want them to exit the market if Mantle turns out to be huge.

People act like AMD is a paragon in the PC graphics space. They have a price advantage because they had to to gain market share. If Nvidia didn't exist, they'd charge more than Nvidia is now for the Titan. Nvidia's pricing is disgusting at this point, but only because of A) Their own 780, and B) because of the 290X, which took AMD 7 months to announce.
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post #85 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlasov_581 View Post

wait, so if it turns out to be something big, like the difference will be very noticeable, will we now effectively condone to dumbing/slowing down tech for market share's sake?

It would be crippling market competition, is there something about this you don't understand? There's effectively no way for nvidia to compete, try rereading or reading my post to see what I mean by that. If you still don't follow, then I guess we disagree tongue.gif.
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post #86 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

It would be crippling market competition, is there something about this you don't understand? There's effectively no way for nvidia to compete, try rereading or reading my post to see what I mean by that. If you still don't follow, then I guess we disagree tongue.gif.

See I still don't understand this though. AMD is on their way out of the enthusiast market in the CPU realm due to Intel consistently beating them. They aren't suing Intel because they'll soon enough have a monopoly on enthusiast desktop CPU's.

If AMD's Mantle really kicks butt and puts Nvidia to shame then what's wrong with them stepping out of the enthusiast market and just sticking to Tegra/SoC's, etc? AMD is about to just go with the APU bandwagon.

Granted, I don't WANT Nvidia to exit the game here but I would hardly call what AMD is doing "monopolistic" at all. They are simply improving their product. If it becomes faster than the competition how is that THEIR fault? Not their fault the competition can't keep up.

It's call innovating. It's called "helping and improving their business". I don't see anything wrong with what AMD is doing myself other than it being proprietary which I don't like.
post #87 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

No, but why would you buy Nvidia GPUs? Yeah, anyone with an Nvidia GPU can play the game, but if most customers are interested in playing the latest games and even AMD's cheaper cards outpace Nvidia's high end, why buy them? I'm speculating on the performance of Mantle, if it's not more than 20%, I don't see too much of a problem with it. Anything more and people wouldn't game on Nvidia GPUs just like most serious gamers don't game on dual core CPUs anymore even though the games run.
Not only directing this at you but you are included in the following Rant: My god, children behave. To your point how about this: the r9290x with Mantle is 25% faster than a Titan. Now you claim that there is no reason to buy Nvidia since it isn't on top. So how does that logic play when Titan was 30-40% over a 7970. By the end results your logic dictates that Nvidia isn't playing fair and that their actions are detrimental to the gaming GPU community.

Physix is a bad comparison for a few reasons. It doesn't make Nvidia GPUs perform better, and as has been stated adds to the game functionality otherwise not existent. Others could have it if they paid for it. And that is the best point for intent. To use it you must pay for it. Mantle whether adaptable to Nvidia or not( not likely seeing even older AMD cards wont be using it either) is stated as open probably alluding to free and not a pay for device aimed probably more at devs than hardware manufacturers.

And for the most part, a great deal of users likely are not so endowed in funds as the Titan and soon to be R9290X owners. So it is great to know that my lowly 7770s may be able to give me more performance than I hoped. Trust me, for many low level GPU users we look at the benches and stats of their better performing brothers and wish we could afford it. So for us this is good and welcomed.

Nvidia likely too will develop an API to get the same/similar results. And to those that think that irrational on the part of devs to take on the extra work, guess who is paying for it? Bet AMD is paying for the extra work and giving them all the tools necessary to get that end result. The only hope I have is that they don't pull an Intel and pay to keep the other manufacturer out .
post #88 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Yes, when it has the potential to create a monopoly. If Nvidia is out of the picture, AMD's graphics hardware tech will slow down way more than it would have if Mantle was skipped. People act like I'm a fanboy when they're cheering for AMD to destroy Nvidia. Even if Nvidia screwed up by not making Mantle, we don't want them to exit the market if Mantle turns out to be huge.

People act like AMD is a paragon in the PC graphics space. They have a price advantage because they had to to gain market share. If Nvidia didn't exist, they'd charge more than Nvidia is now for the Titan. Nvidia's pricing is disgusting at this point, but only because of A) Their own 780, and B) because of the 290X, which took AMD 7 months to announce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

It would be crippling market competition, is there something about this you don't understand? There's effectively no way for nvidia to compete, try rereading or reading my post to see what I mean by that. If you still don't follow, then I guess we disagree tongue.gif.

    
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post #89 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

It would be crippling market competition, is there something about this you don't understand? There's effectively no way for nvidia to compete, try rereading or reading my post to see what I mean by that. If you still don't follow, then I guess we disagree tongue.gif.

I'm still confused and I must have missed your other point.

For what legitimate reason couldn't NVidia create their own API or at least make it easier to use/advertise it better.
     
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post #90 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Not only directing this at you but you are included in the following Rant: My god, children behave. To your point how about this: the r9290x with Mantle is 25% faster than a Titan. Now you claim that there is no reason to buy Nvidia since it isn't on top. So how does that logic play when Titan was 30-40% over a 7970. By the end results your logic dictates that Nvidia isn't playing fair and that their actions are detrimental to the gaming GPU community.

Physix is a bad comparison for a few reasons. It doesn't make Nvidia GPUs perform better, and as has been stated adds to the game functionality otherwise not existent. Others could have it if they paid for it. And that is the best point for intent. To use it you must pay for it. Mantle whether adaptable to Nvidia or not( not likely seeing even older AMD cards wont be using it either) is stated as open probably alluding to free and not a pay for device aimed probably more at devs than hardware manufacturers.

And for the most part, a great deal of users likely are not so endowed in funds as the Titan and soon to be R9290X owners. So it is great to know that my lowly 7770s may be able to give me more performance than I hoped. Trust me, for many low level GPU users we look at the benches and stats of their better performing brothers and wish we could afford it. So for us this is good and welcomed.

Nvidia likely too will develop an API to get the same/similar results. And to those that think that irrational on the part of devs to take on the extra work, guess who is paying for it? Bet AMD is paying for the extra work and giving them all the tools necessary to get that end result. The only hope I have is that they don't pull an Intel and pay to keep the other manufacturer out .

Most of the problems I see with Mantle are conditional on:

A) it's bump over DX11
B) how widely used it is/how easy to implement (maybe follows from the first or from AMD's console dominance)
C) if Nvidia can benefit from it in some way

I've stated several times that if Mantle is less than 20%, it's not a problem, it promotes competition.

If it's more than 20%, one does not simply improve performance of a GPU that's already been refreshed by 20%. AMD proved this by not making a GPU that was definitively better than GK110 in anything but Mantle games.

It has been speculated that Mantle might just be a "copy and paste" job of a lot of the low level code from the consoles, not that consoles use Mantle, but a portion of code is easily brought from consoles using Mantle, aka the "Console to PC bridge" idea. If it is, NvAPI will never be able to compete with AMD during the next 7 year console generation. If Mantle is more difficult to implement, then it probably won't go anywhere so it's a non-issue.

I never said Mantle was exactly like PhysX, the only similarity is if it is used to differentiate cards within the same price category, as PhysX is. If it's more than 20% we start having 7970s beating 780s in some situations, great for 7970 owners but terrible for Nvidia's ability to compete and terrible for anyone buying GPUs in the future.

Mantle is great for current GCN owners, but what happens after the die shrink and Nvidia's die shrink gets left in the dust? If Mantle is widely used enough, Nvidia won't be able to compete. AMD's prices go up except even die shrinks and Nvidia refreshes can't bring AMD's prices back down. This is worse than the pre 290X Nvidia pricing situation. Nvidia is playing "fair" in the sense that AMD can catch up through refreshes (290X) or die shrinks.

We DON'T want Nvidia to make a competing API, that would be terrible and less likely to be adopted than AMD's. If Mantle can be somehow used to benefit Nvidia, that's good for everyone.
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