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[polygon]Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says - Page 10

post #91 of 148
Mantle might not only be for optimizing performace. Since it has straight access to everything GCN can offer, who's to say AMD can't implement stuff in hw that wasn't previously possible using DX? And even if we're talking only the hardware the current chips in consoles have, some new graphics effects might still be possible with the consoles and Mantle whereas the same effects would be too costly to implement in DX due to its overhead problems. AMD even alludes to stuff like this in the presentation.



New rendering techniques. thumb.gif
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post #92 of 148
Let's not be excited about better potential performance because there is potential that it might force another player in the industry to have to innovate!

Rabble rabble rabble!

NVIDIA will go out of business and all the employees will say, "Dey took 'r jebs!" tongue.gif
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post #93 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Most of the problems I see with Mantle are conditional on:

A) it's bump over DX11
B) how widely used it is/how easy to implement (maybe follows from the first or from AMD's console dominance)
C) if Nvidia can benefit from it in some way

I've stated several times that if Mantle is less than 20%, it's not a problem, it promotes competition.

If it's more than 20%, one does not simply improve performance of a GPU that's already been refreshed by 20%. AMD proved this by not making a GPU that was definitively better than GK110 in anything but Mantle games.

It has been speculated that Mantle might just be a "copy and paste" job of a lot of the low level code from the consoles, not that consoles use Mantle, but a portion of code is easily brought from consoles using Mantle, aka the "Console to PC bridge" idea. If it is, NvAPI will never be able to compete with AMD during the next 7 year console generation. If Mantle is more difficult to implement, then it probably won't go anywhere so it's a non-issue.

I never said Mantle was exactly like PhysX, the only similarity is if it is used to differentiate cards within the same price category, as PhysX is. If it's more than 20% we start having 7970s beating 780s in some situations, great for 7970 owners but terrible for Nvidia's ability to compete and terrible for anyone buying GPUs in the future.

Mantle is great for current GCN owners, but what happens after the die shrink and Nvidia's die shrink gets left in the dust? If Mantle is widely used enough, Nvidia won't be able to compete. AMD's prices go up except even die shrinks and Nvidia refreshes can't bring AMD's prices back down. This is worse than the pre 290X Nvidia pricing situation. Nvidia is playing "fair" in the sense that AMD can catch up through refreshes (290X) or die shrinks.

We DON'T want Nvidia to make a competing API, that would be terrible and less likely to be adopted than AMD's. If Mantle can be somehow used to benefit Nvidia, that's good for everyone.

Mantle's lack of compatibility with other products is exactly what is giving GCN cards the big performance boost. Once AMD starts making changes to the GCN architecture, which they will have to, Mantle will start to lose its effectiveness and become like OpenGL or DX.
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post #94 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomTaco View Post

Considering that this would give a (potentially) significant competitive advantage to AMD that NVIDIA couldn't match, I feel as though it could be argued legally as being a monopolistic move

no, just no...its not monopolistic because, nvidia cards would still work just not as well as AMD cards.

do amd sue intel for better performance with the intel compiler? no, they just try to match intels performance.

your argument is tantamount to hey there widget is better than ours...sue them....
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post #95 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master__Shake View Post

no, just no...its not monopolistic because, nvidia cards would still work just not as well as AMD cards.

do amd sue intel for better performance with the intel compiler? no, they just try to match intels performance.

your argument is tantamount to hey there widget is better than ours...sue them....

AMD's product is not better than Nvidia's. They are using deals and a new API designed around their product to out perform Nvidia in some games in the future. The question is, again, in how many and by how much. The only reason AMD can do this is because of their place in the consoles. Shame on Nvidia for not getting console contracts, but nobody should celebrate what this means in the long run. Intel's compiler does not provide enough of a boost to make AMD CPUs obsolete and there is not a 7 year cycle keeping their compiler in use.
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post #96 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

I'll upgrade to something else before Mantle even matters, maybe AMD. I've had my Titan for almost 7 months and I'll sell it for at least $700 when I upgrade. I do it every generation. My arguments concern what Mantle means in the long run for PC graphics. Mantle doesn't matter right now, and won't matter at all until December when BF4 gets the patch.

I stated very clearly, how do you step your game up another 20-30% after you've already done a refresh? AMD tried this with 290X and couldn't do it. 290X is not destroying Titans in anything but Mantle games, probably falls short and they are embarassed to show the specs because of it.
AMD's product is not better than Nvidia's. They are using deals and a new API designed around their product to out perform Nvidia in some games in the future. The question is, again, in how many and by how much. The only reason AMD can do this is because of their place in the consoles. Shame on Nvidia for not getting console contracts, but nobody should celebrate what this means in the long run. Intel's compiler does not provide enough of a boost to make AMD CPUs obsolete and there is not a 7 year cycle keeping their compiler in use.

Actually with the exception of the Titan and the 780 the 7xxx series is in general far superior to Nvidia's same price level offerings. Just as far as brute hardware power goes. So you could actually say that Mantle will just help unlock the hidden potential that AMD cards have had..

As for your conjecture about how the 290x and titan measure up and whether or not it "needs" mantle to not be embarrased, we simply don't know at this point
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post #97 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

I'll upgrade to something else before Mantle even matters, maybe AMD. I've had my Titan for almost 7 months and I'll sell it for at least $700 when I upgrade. I do it every generation. My arguments concern what Mantle means in the long run for PC graphics. Mantle doesn't matter right now, and won't matter at all until December when BF4 gets the patch.

I stated very clearly, how do you step your game up another 20-30% after you've already done a refresh? AMD tried this with 290X and couldn't do it. 290X is not destroying Titans in anything but Mantle games, probably falls short and they are embarassed to show the specs because of it.
AMD's product is not better than Nvidia's. They are using deals and a new API designed around their product to out perform Nvidia in some games in the future. The question is, again, in how many and by how much. The only reason AMD can do this is because of their place in the consoles. Shame on Nvidia for not getting console contracts, but nobody should celebrate what this means in the long run. Intel's compiler does not provide enough of a boost to make AMD CPUs obsolete and there is not a 7 year cycle keeping their compiler in use.

I assume you can see into the future and tell us exactly how well the R290X is going to perform rolleyes.gif
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post #98 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

I'll upgrade to something else before Mantle even matters, maybe AMD. I've had my Titan for almost 7 months and I'll sell it for at least $700 when I upgrade. I do it every generation. My arguments concern what Mantle means in the long run for PC graphics. Mantle doesn't matter right now, and won't matter at all until December when BF4 gets the patch.

I stated very clearly, how do you step your game up another 20-30% after you've already done a refresh? AMD tried this with 290X and couldn't do it. 290X is not destroying Titans in anything but Mantle games, probably falls short and they are embarassed to show the specs because of it.
AMD's product is not better than Nvidia's. They are using deals and a new API designed around their product to out perform Nvidia in some games in the future. The question is, again, in how many and by how much. The only reason AMD can do this is because of their place in the consoles. Shame on Nvidia for not getting console contracts, but nobody should celebrate what this means in the long run. Intel's compiler does not provide enough of a boost to make AMD CPUs obsolete and there is not a 7 year cycle keeping their compiler in use.
Way too much wrong here. Last point first: ICC is way worse than Mantle. ICC forces non-Intel CPUs to use SSE_ where as Intel CPUs use AVX. Problem here is AMD can use AVX, but Nvidia doesn't have GCN. So there is a lack of inherent evil in AMDs use whereas Intels is full of it. First point last: Amd is likely competitive with the 290X against the Titan. When you compare prices then the 290X will likely pull ahead. Even if on the FPS metric the Titan is still on top and even if only 5% it doesn't mean AMD cant keep up or compete. You seem a fair bit one sided or biased for some reason. Seem is the key word here.

Again were you fine with Titan being the 30-40% better over 7970 for the last 7-8mths? Seems you must have been. And yet you complain about AMD having a possible lead against Nvidias best.
post #99 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by trulsrohk View Post

Actually with the exception of the Titan and the 780 the 7xxx series is in general far superior to Nvidia's same price level offerings. Just as far as brute hardware power goes. So you could actually say that Mantle will just help unlock the hidden potential that AMD cards have had..

I wouldn't call it hidden potential. Mantle will not help any existing game. 7970 will still be slower than 780 in most currently released games. This has absolutely nothing to do with the benefits of GCN, just the benefits of coding for it.
Quote:
As for your conjecture about how the 290x and titan measure up and whether or not it "needs" mantle to not be embarrased, we simply don't know at this point

That's true. I am speculating on the real performance of Mantle and of the 290X. Companies tend to overstate the performance of their hardware in presentations. AMD did not do this, they didn't even show it. We have to infer it from a poor Firestrike graphic. Either the Firestrike graphic is indicative of performance or AMD screwed up their marketing. If the GPU was that great, AMD would not have spent so much time telling us about other things. 290X will not beat Titan on average, I will call that. 780 is very close to Titan, so it will probably be a wash. All Nvidia has to do is lower Titan's price, which they may not do, but 290X is not impressive if all it does is match the 780 at basically the same price.

Mantle is what they are hoping will make it impressive. If AMD could have made the 290X faster than the Titan in other games, they would have done it and they would have said it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, AMD's marketing team needs to be fired. People previously considering 780s have no reason to consider 290X except for Mantle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I assume you can see into the future and tell us exactly how well the R290X is going to perform rolleyes.gif

I'm guessing, yes guessing, that AMD would have made a big deal about the performance if it was better than the Titan. They didn't say anything, just Mantle, TrueAudio, transistors, TFLOPS and 8000 Firestrike. I will eat my words if this turns out to be untrue, but I'm 99% sure it will be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Way too much wrong here. Last point first: ICC is way worse than Mantle. ICC forces non-Intel CPUs to use SSE_ where as Intel CPUs use AVX. Problem here is AMD can use AVX, but Nvidia doesn't have GCN. So there is a lack of inherent evil in AMDs use whereas Intels is full of it. First point last: Amd is likely competitive with the 290X against the Titan. When you compare prices then the 290X will likely pull ahead. Even if on the FPS metric the Titan is still on top and even if only 5% it doesn't mean AMD cant keep up or compete. You seem a fair bit one sided or biased for some reason. Seem is the key word here.

Again were you fine with Titan being the 30-40% better over 7970 for the last 7-8mths? Seems you must have been. And yet you complain about AMD having a possible lead against Nvidias best.

I don't care which is more evil. People are celebrating Mantle like it's great for PC Gaming. If people were celebrating ICC like it was great for CPU tasks, I would argue against that as well. I'm trying to point out the negative potential of this. The negative potential of ICC has already occurred. Just because I have an Intel CPU doesn't mean I support the use of ICC or like seeing AMD relegated to SSE. However, if much of the Intel benefit is because of ICC, we see this same thing happening. AMD CPUs are very hard to recommend for enthusiast gamers, and Intel charges an Intel tax starting at $190 for their base locked quad core. That's bad. Mantle has the potential to be just as bad even if Intel's motivations were more evil. All I'm doing is pointing that out.

As far as Nvidia's hardware advantage, that made games run faster in OpenGL or DirectX. There was no problem with competition because everyone expected AMD to release hardware in a refresh, which they are now doing but with the addition of a software advantage that has nothing to do with the merits of the card and everything to do with their market position. Of course AMD would do that, just like Intel would use their size and position, but it's not good for anyone but AMD.
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post #100 of 148
Alright I'm not sure why people can't understand my point so I'm going to summarize it super simple like with this question:

If manufacturer a has a new method that allows for 30% peformance improvements for ALL their cards across the board on new games as a result of the fact that they added a new form of code that all game users are using (as a result of console exclusivity) WHICH CANNOT be implemented onto the competition nor emulated in a manner that allows them to still be competitive in pricing or financial sustainability, how does the second company continue to exist in the market?
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