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[WccfTech] Battlefield 4 and Frostbite 3 Will Support Both AMD Mantle and NVIDIA NVAPI APIs For PC Optimizations - Page 13

post #121 of 125
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Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

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Originally Posted by looniam View Post

actually his latest one is:
later in the same conversation. i cannot see calling something a "maintenance headache" on "quirky" hardware being entirely open. but of course wade is the only one who truly knows how he feels. but the expressions of thoughts with other compilers don't seem overly positive, i didn't mean was agnostic.
Sure you can. Specially when all the information isn't there yet. AMD still has yet to offer more info about it which they will do later this month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

another tech director from the same game dev? i considered questioning johan, who developed mantle w/amd pretty pertinent esp. since will have a hands on involvement in activision using mantle. he questioned the consequences of mantle and he asked johan; "whats the reason for dealing with a problem we have not experienced" - to paraphrase; if there isn't a problem with using DX and using the full 8 cores of a cpu, then why bother presenting it as an advantage in mantle? maybe the latter not so much but thinking ahead, "whats going to happen with other hardware" - yeah i'm looking at it being pertinent.
I think you are reading more into it then what it is. Asking questions about a new API is normal. There is nothing abnormal inquiring about a new API that one developer has announced will be used in their FB engine. Again, nothing agnostic about it and it reads positive otherwise. thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

i thought a few times i mentioned the difference between MS being able to support DX with more resources than amd, esp. financial when devs were/are faced with the uncertainty of integrating new coding/api for DX which is not hardware concentric. if you want to look at the history ofan api that was; then seeing how glide worked out would be much more appropriate. thumb.gif
We've had very few updates to DX11. Specially when compared to DX9 back in the day. So the amount of resources, finances, etc you paint the picture for is, for the most part, doesn't relate in comparison to Mantle. As with any new API I would assume that AMD, etc would make the needed updates when required. Furthermore, with the next gen consoles under their belt developer relationships have vastly improved from days past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

when this is all said and done - you have your view and presented what it is based on and i am doing the same. what will probably most likely happen will be totally different - just saying .cheers.
Opinions, opinions. We all have them don't we? What we do know is some of the following:
-Mantle is creating a stir to both PC/console users and developers. As you can see many are paying close attention to it and are asking about it.
-It's use in FB engine is a solid win for AMD moving forward. Therefore, any concerns about how it will be used, costs, etc have already been leveraged.
-Now that we know that Mantle will be used in both GPU and APU it's going to very interesting to see how the benchmarks are going to look moving forward.

That's the gist of it so far from what I see. The real meat and potatoes of it will come once benchmarks are released using Mantle vs without Mantle in BF4. Also, if any, what we will see in older GCN related GPUs like the 7000 series.

ok man. thumb.gif

i doubt there is going to be any "meeting of the minds" here so i'll thank you for the pleasant discussion and wish ya the best for you and yours until later.
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post #122 of 125
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Originally Posted by coupe View Post

Architecture does not affect an API being open. AMD created Mantle as an open API, just like HSA will be open, TressFX is open and OpenCL is open. Nvidia just has to implement the necessary steps to make Mantle compatible with their architecture.

The difference is CUDA and NVAPI are closed and can only be used with Nvidia cards, much like Physx. This is why I don't buy Nvidia any longer, if possible.

I don't follow. Architecture is everything. NVIDIA can't use GCN, as AMD can't use CUDA. How would you run Mantle which is written for GCN to run with Nvidia? This is low level programming right at the hardware.

I would think to get it to work would require a emulator which would be slower than just using DX.

If they wrote mantle for nvidia use that would be one thing.
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post #123 of 125
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Didn't people want programing to hardware for PC's like consoles are? Do you really think that can be accomplished any other way than to be vendor specific? Arguing that this creates hardware bios is pointless if you truely want direct to hardware access. Amd is used in all consoles. Most games will be sold through this market. They have made a great business decision to create an API to optimize the architecture in these consoles....then bring that API and architecture to PC is logical and wise. Why should developers cater to hardware manufactures if it holds back the performance of their products? Why should DICE not use Mantle if it produces better games for them? It's not like Using Mantle would decrease the performance of NV cards. Nvidia owners are going to get the same performance with or without Mantle option for AMD users. To complain that the game performs better for AMD users and say that Mantle is a bad idea is jealousy. But if Mantle disappears because it is too much work for developers...then so be it. But on the sole fact that NV cards can't compete...that is unwarranted and wrong.

Of course writting to hardware is going to take more effort...and more APIs due to the variety of hardware. With consoles using the same hardware and being the same arch as some PCs, AMD has made it a bit simpler.
Edited by ejb222 - 10/1/13 at 8:01am
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post #124 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Didn't people want programing to hardware for PC's like consoles are? Do you really think that can be accomplished any other way than to be vendor specific? Arguing that this creates hardware bios is pointless if you truely want direct to hardware access. Amd is used in all consoles. Most games will be sold through this market. They have made a great business decision to create an API to optimize the architecture in these consoles....then bring that API and architecture to PC is logical and wise. Why should developers cater to hardware manufactures if it holds back the performance of their products? Why should DICE not use Mantle if it produces better games for them? It's not like Using Mantle would decrease the performance of NV cards. Nvidia owners are going to get the same performance with or without Mantle option for AMD users. To complain that the game performs better for AMD users and say that Mantle is a bad idea is jealousy. But if Mantle disappears because it is too much work for developers...then so be it. But on the sole fact that NV cards can't compete...that is unwarranted and wrong.

Of course writting to hardware is going to take more effort...and more APIs due to the variety of hardware. With consoles using the same hardware and being the same arch as some PCs, AMD has made it a bit simpler.
This is a1st in PC gaming history that it's being optimized to work similarly to how consoles gaming are developed. So there is going to be some chatter. But overall you are right in how you see the bigger picture of all this moving forward.
post #125 of 125
I'm just worried about development.
Performance wise it is very advantageous for all parties to program at the hardware level. But the PC has to be able to encompass 100*100^10 of configurations and the best way to do that is via a general API. You write program to 1 compatible set of parameters and you easily include a massive array of PC configurations with little hassle.

If they can include Mantle alongside DX and/or OpenGL without harming general development than we have a winner. I don't want to see exclusive game titles though. The PC is all about building a system how you want it to run X game. If we get exclusive titles then we are moving towards how 'they' want it. Which then it would be better to just buy a console.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [WccfTech] Battlefield 4 and Frostbite 3 Will Support Both AMD Mantle and NVIDIA NVAPI APIs For PC Optimizations