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[CBS]Water discovered in Mars surface layer - Page 4

post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

No honestly. I wanted to copy paste ''Thanks for the info. iARDAs'' But my last copy action was that song to a specific individual over at a Turkish forum. Sorry about that really mad.gif  

It's just a joke man!
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post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingNugget View Post

It is possible. The problem for that theory is that the whole universe uses the same laws for physics.


Does the whole universe use the same laws for physics (bit impossible to make a statement like that when we cannot even venture outside of our own solar system) or is it a case of us using those laws of physics to understand the universe because we don't know better?

 

I honestly think it's more a case of the latter.

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post #33 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

Not 100% related to the topic but I fail to understand the reason why there must be water in a planet for that planet to have living organisms or aliens if you will... Many scientists just write off life on a planet if there isn't water.

Can't other organisms have different means of survivaiL?

I tried to bring up this exact point before and everyone got all mad at me about how we have to maintain an absolute narrow viewpoint on life and that only humans and what we need can be life and that is the only form it takes, no other creatures are allowed to exist beyond what we humans need. So be careful, people will likely start to flame you quite a bit for thinking "outside the box"


Quote:
Originally Posted by funfortehfun View Post

With our current knowledge, no. Water is required for most (pretty much all) chemical processes in organisms. Proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, etc... all depend on water.

Except that even on earth not every form of life conforms to our narrow viewpoint on what is "required" to give something life. There is already a life form on Earth that can live off of arsenic, something that is incredibly toxic to humans. Something thought to be completely inconceivable for life just a few years ago.


Quote:
This finding of an alternative biochemistry makeup will alter biology textbooks and expand the scope of the search for life beyond Earth. The research is published in this week's edition of Science Express.

Carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and sulfur are the six basic building blocks of all known forms of life on Earth. Phosphorus is part of the chemical backbone of DNA and RNA, the structures that carry genetic instructions for life, and is considered an essential element for all living cells.

Phosphorus is a central component of the energy-carrying molecule in all cells (adenosine triphosphate) and also the phospholipids that form all cell membranes. Arsenic, which is chemically similar to phosphorus, is poisonous for most life on Earth. Arsenic disrupts metabolic pathways because chemically it behaves similarly to phosphate.

"We know that some microbes can breathe arsenic, but what we've found is a microbe doing something new -- building parts of itself out of arsenic," said Felisa Wolfe-Simon, a NASA Astrobiology Research Fellow in residence at the U.S. Geological Survey in Menlo Park, Calif., and the research team's lead scientist. "If something here on Earth can do something so unexpected, what else can life do that we haven't seen yet?"

Edited by EniGma1987 - 9/30/13 at 8:20am
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post #34 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshield View Post


Does the whole universe use the same laws for physics (bit impossible to make a statement like that when we cannot even venture outside of our own solar system) or is it a case of us using those laws of physics to understand the universe because we don't know better?

I honestly think it's more a case of the latter.

IF our entire universe didn't use the same fundamental physics, we would have seen so many exceptions by now, that our understanding would be back at square one.

Back on topic: The reason water is important as a precursor for life is the unique angle of the hydrogen atom's bond to oxygen, 109.5 degrees, which gives water it's polarity enabling it to be a weak solvent and not destroy any compounds dissolved in to it. See also expanding when transitioning to a solid.
The next most important element is phosphorus, which is essential because of its vast potential to form different compounds, essential to proteins, DNA, RNA and amino acids.(insert longer discussion about free electrons here. lol)

Arsenic based life was thought to be found on earth, http://www.nature.com/news/arsenic-life-bacterium-prefers-phosphorus-after-all-1.11520 , but was later proven false in that study.

While there is a list of other combinations, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry , most require a rather unique set of circumstances that preclude a truly complex life form or even existence at all.
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post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil~ View Post

Mars does not have enough H2O to support life. The amount of energy needed to produce 1 gallon of usable water would make the process inefficient.
It's life. Inefficiency is not what stops life from spreading.... what usually happens is a lifeforms find an environment with little competition and adapts over time to thrive in it free from competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil~ View Post

I am speaking in realistic terms. If we are supposed to live on Mars with current or near current technology (say 100 years into the future) it would be impossible. You can't use all the energy you have to produce water as it is volatile. Say you use a 2000F or 50,000HP generator/furnace to make 5,000 gallons of water. On Mars atmosphere, that would be used in a day, if not mere hours. And you need to make more, but your fuel is gone because you were using it for other things too like lighting, work and recreational purposes. You know, living.

That's why I said there is no life on Mars. There is simply not enough (if any) H2O to support life as we know it.
Mars has polar caps with ice.
Also, how do you know there aren't underground lakes?
Microscopic organism could hunt and extract water crystals as needed as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Water, or iodine, are the only compounds, in which we know of, are capable of acting as a medium for organic transfer within organic life. Large quantities of oxygen is not needed, but a medium for protein transfer has been the common ground for organic life.
I believe life could also exist in liquid methane. Some believe Saturn's moon Titan might be capable of supporting life.
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post #36 of 58
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Originally Posted by Clazman55 View Post

IF our entire universe didn't use the same fundamental physics, we would have seen so many exceptions by now, that our understanding would be back at square one.

Our galaxy is like a drop of water in an ocean. It's so big it's pretty much crazy to pass off any possibility of our calculations and rules being made redundant. We haven't seen anything else because we're not capable of finding it, or not looking for it because we have bound our concepts by laws we created by nothing more than our own understanding of what we see, not because it isn't there.
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post #37 of 58
There is already a life form on Earth that lives off of arsenic, something that is incredibly toxic to humans. Is what I'm nitpicking. maybe you and I are using different definitions of "live off"

Announcement: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/02dec_monolake/

Many articles to counter this have been written:

1. http://io9.com/5708505/was-the-arsenic-life-form-announcement-just-a-nasa-publicity-stunt

2. http://www.ibtimes.com/scientists-dispute-nasas-arsenic-based-life-discovery-722014 Key paragraph: Two papers published Sunday in the prestigious journal Science show how the bacterium, identified as GFAJ-1, is able to grow at low phosphate concentrations even in the presence of high concentrations of arsenate. However, the organism lacks the ability to grow in phosphorus-depleted arsenate-containing medium. GFAJ-1 is considered to be an arsenate-resistant, phosphate-dependent strain.

3. Counter-study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6093/470.abstract
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post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

Not 100% related to the topic but I fail to understand the reason why there must be water in a planet for that planet to have living organisms or aliens if you will... Many scientists just write off life on a planet if there isn't water.

Can't other organisms have different means of survivaiL?

back on topic, I wish instead of fighting each other, we would attempt on exploring the universe further. Hopefully this news can do that.


No particular reason why they'd need water, we believe methane would work just as well, or one of any number of different pathways of life. It's just that we're all based on water, and so the easiest place to start looking for ET life is places with water. It's called playing the safe bet.


As far as it goes, I saw this several days ago but didn't post it for the reason the OP did post it. The problem with the water is that it's all bound up in minerals and wot on the surface, it's not free water. Free water is what would be essential for life, we already knew Mars had water in the surface material, we are looking for sizable pockets of free water for life.
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post #39 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrscott View Post

Water is the only prerequisite for every living thing on this planet. The cells need to move about in something, and here it's water (-based liquids). It stands to reason that that's going to a good sign of the potential for life.

Yes, for life...as we know it. evo.gif

Though the human definition of "life" has a few criteria and one of them is getting energy from a chemical conversion...like metabolism. So this rules out any thing like rocks that might actually have thought processes. I'd like for the definition of life to be changed a little bit. I mean viruses aren't even considered lifeforms because they can't reproduce on their own (another one of the criteria to be alive).
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post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

Not 100% related to the topic but I fail to understand the reason why there must be water in a planet for that planet to have living organisms or aliens if you will... Many scientists just write off life on a planet if there isn't water.

Can't other organisms have different means of survivaiL?

back on topic, I wish instead of fighting each other, we would attempt on exploring the universe further. Hopefully this news can do that.

All life needs liquid. Because of the complex interactions between parts of the living body, liquid is needed.

Since it is way to warm for most liquids, water is really the only thing that can exist in liquid form. So what ever life exist, needs water. If it was titan, then we would look at methane and ethane base life.

If we where looking on venus, we would look at heavy metals.

But in order to make or have complex interactions between parts of the living body, you need some type of liquid. On pluto, it would be hydrogen. On mars it is water.
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