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[ET] Steam Box: Valve abuses its gamer goodwill to bet big on a bad idea - Page 3

post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Killer View Post

People seem to think that these are targeting gamers who are already comfortable playing games in front of their PCs (that's us). NOPE, Valve is targeting the gamers that prefer to use a 10ft GUI with a TV to play games. Valve not abusing the goodwill of the current user-base of Steam, Valve is trying to get more.

This would be me, a long time, former console gamer. I'm excited for the SteamOS since I have a dedicated gaming PC and the controller is also very welcome since it is what I'm used to.

I can't see why there is negativity behind Steam going this direction honestly. If you don't plan to use any of their new products absolutely nothing changes on your end and you keep gaming like you were before. thumb.gif

I hope the addition of the SteamOS and controller improves the overall gaming experience for PC gamers because it is lacking in comparison to console IMO
    
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post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

Just think about any animated video that needs to be rendered. Stuff like it took Toy Story 3 1,038,240 CPU hours to render that movie. That obviously had a lot more precission than needed. It took 7 hours to render a single frame. Just imaging that kinda framerate =D.

You really can't compare offline rendering to real-time... In offline rendering, you don't have limitations on quality (well, technically, there are some limits, but they're many thousands of times higher that what can be done real-time); therefore, artists tend to go all out on fidelity. It would be pretty terrible for a circular object to obviously be an octagon, or for textures to appear blurry in a movie, after all. Not to mention that movies are rendered with RenderMan and/or unbiased path-tracing render engines, which are far, far better and more accurate -and more taxing- than the per-pixel shading used in current AAA games. Plus, while I'm not very familiar with Pixar's render farms, I suspect that that rendertime could be cut down to a few minutes per frame if done on GPU arrays...

And in those pictures from Ryse, I can tell the difference, even with the terrible compression, resolution, and AA. Once you get above a certain polycount, you have diminishing returns; however, higher polycounts do look better, which is why they're used when possible.

I do, however, agree with your statement regarding optimizations on the next-gen consoles. The games will look much better once developers get used to the new architecture. Every console's launch games have looked terrible compared to later games on the same hardware, and I have no reason to believe that this generation will be different in that respect.
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post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

I saw the difference in the shadowing in some areas, but the lion's head thing i couldn't see. So, shadows and maybe the lions head = 80k Polygons? I look at the 2 and I really need to look hard to find any sort of differences between the two. The only thing that stood out is the shadowing, but that could have also been a design choice to lower the shadow density in their helms.

To complain and say that the machines are not powerful already and seeing ~50% polygon cut and still end up with near identical images to me shows there is a lot of things they can do make something look nicer. We can create stuff far exceeding current machines already, doesn't mean that we should. Just think about any animated video that needs to be rendered. Stuff like it took Toy Story 3 1,038,240 CPU hours to render that movie. That obviously had a lot more precission than needed. It took 7 hours to render a single frame. Just imaging that kinda framerate =D.

We dont have any optimized engines right now, they are all just there rendering like they would on a PC. Give them time to understand how to take advantage of the hardware, and im sure they can give you that 1080p.

Look at Crysis. It runs on an 8 year old machine and still looks nice.

I'm not necessarily saying it was a bad choice to use lower poly characters in Ryse, just that the XBO evidently ended up slower then some devs had hoped. The main point I was trying to make was that the consoles have very real limitations and rubbing up against said limit is not that hard even for seasoned developers who know how to make games with out wasting resources.

As for toys story, well that's a whole nother ball game. First off its CPU rendering it not really comparable to GPU rendering. Even rendering Doom 3 on an CPU would take a long time and Toy Story 3 is still pretty bare bones as far as CGI goes. You said It had more "precision" then needed but if you start dropping stuff out then pretty soon you are back where they started.

Which would be this


If they stopped at Toy Story 1 then the tech would have never progressed to he point where they can do things like this


But perhaps you think they should have stuck to using mesh hair and strand rendering is just an resource hungry gimmick.

Bottom line, its the same old law of diminishing returns. You need exponentially more power to improve fidelity. Doubling the polycount is not going to make the graphics twice as good but it is one part of the whole. To take advantage of the higher poly count you need to have better lighting, textures and all that other jazz as well.

That's why it always makes me laugh when some one makes claims that "10 years form now games will have avatar like graphics". Games wont even come close. In avatar the average plant had around 100k polys and mean while even us on PC don't even have ray tracing tongue.gif
    
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post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Yes, but then you have to considered the installed based for development.

Is CD Project Red doing to the metal programming for everything? Doubtful.

Like I said... what's the point of a Steam Machine if it's just a PC?

The point is to make PC an appliance. Set it down, plug it in, done. I was also hopeful they would make a only few models with standard specs so games could be optimized to that hardware arrangement but I suppose Valve thought that would probably piss people off and make it too console-y.

Really, IMO this idea was going to happen sooner or later. People want PC on their couch. It has only half-solved the issues of that, but hey, no-one's forcing you to buy. If it does bust, Valve can take the hit and survive. Then go back to being a game developer maybe.
    
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post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrysasquatch View Post

The point is to make PC an appliance. Set it down, plug it in, done. I was also hopeful they would make a only few models with standard specs so games could be optimized to that hardware arrangement but I suppose Valve thought that would probably piss people off and make it too console-y.

Really, IMO this idea was going to happen sooner or later. People want PC on their couch. It has only half-solved the issues of that, but hey, no-one's forcing you to buy. If it does bust, Valve can take the hit and survive. Then go back to being a game developer maybe.

I'm suspect third party hardware vendors will have to meet some minimum hardware spec in order to be allowed to market their PC's as "Steam Machines". If valve does not demand this then its just a cluster F waiting to happen.
    
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post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

But perhaps you think they should have stuck to using mesh hair and strand rendering is just an resource hungry gimmick.

Which gives us things like TressFX which makes things like that more possible with games. Things like AMD's mantel may start to allow developers to build out more optimal engines for a more broad rage of hardware... unless its a pain in the ass and no one uses it =).

Either way, Next Gen consoles still have a whole lot of unlocked potential, its no different than the previous generations.If anything shame on the company for giving people false hopes and blaming sony \ microsoft. They said they could do something and it looks like they couldnt deliver it. Thats their choice.
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post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Dizzle View Post

Sad part is, that flame suit is a great idea. Valve comes out with the most ridiculous controller design of all time and people find it amazing. If MS had done the dual trackpad thing, it'd be treated like Metro.

Because Microsoft doesn't care enough to do it right, also you should read the testimonials from the indie devs who got to use it, it isn't even really touch pads it's different form the touch pads.
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post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Because Microsoft doesn't care enough to do it right, also you should read the testimonials from the indie devs who got to use it, it isn't even really touch pads it's different form the touch pads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

Which gives us things like TressFX which makes things like that more possible with games. Things like AMD's mantel may start to allow developers to build out more optimal engines for a more broad rage of hardware... unless its a pain in the ass and no one uses it =).

Either way, Next Gen consoles still have a whole lot of unlocked potential, its no different than the previous generations.If anything shame on the company for giving people false hopes and blaming sony \ microsoft. They said they could do something and it looks like they couldnt deliver it. Thats their choice.

mantle is bad news once they drop it and future video cards can't run mantle based games.
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post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrysasquatch View Post

The point is to make PC an appliance. Set it down, plug it in, done. I was also hopeful they would make a only few models with standard specs so games could be optimized to that hardware arrangement but I suppose Valve thought that would probably piss people off and make it too console-y.

Really, IMO this idea was going to happen sooner or later. People want PC on their couch. It has only half-solved the issues of that, but hey, no-one's forcing you to buy. If it does bust, Valve can take the hit and survive. Then go back to being a game developer maybe.
Still doesn't change anything really though.... they could just these are our OEM partners and here are their Steam Machines... existing mITX or smaller systems. What new development is required that some partners haven't launched yet?
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