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How or will AMD Mantle API, HSA, AMD True audio, AMD open64 compiler, and HUMA change next gen gaming for PC and console games

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Mantle API has already been taken up by Activision and EA as default for nextgen which will only benefit AMD / ATI / Radeon http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20131003232053_AMD_Mantle_Is_Proprietary_Now_But_It_Will_Become_Widely_Available_to_Others.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2049560/amds-low-level-mantle-graphics-could-mean-big-things-for-pc-gaming.html http://gearnuke.com/principal-technical-director-activision-says-well-support-amds-mantle/ http://www.pcworld.com/article/2049397/amd-unveils-hawaii-generation-of-gpus.html and if your lazy and want to watch a video on mantle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLt5RVGJfQY here is the full AMD live stream
http://www.livestream.com/amdlivestream/video?clipId=pla_33493acd-ba7b-4917-8caf-ff204913625b&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

EA and Activision have already said they will default with Mantle API on PC and if hardware is not AMD GCN architecture will fall back to directX or open GL which is a huge performance decrease Mantle offers upto 9x or more the perfomance boost on exact same Radeon / ATI / AMD hardware over directX or openGL and offers no performance increase for Intel / Nvidia at all.

I also forgot to mention you know how consoles get huge performance increases because hardware is used so efficient it is literally to the metal / hardware LVL well this is what Mantle brings to PC from console and xbox one / PS4 from what I understand are using the Mantle API which is crossplatform so automatically will port over to the PC and will only benefit AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware.


AMD's HUMA also involved in next gen only AMD / ATI / Radeon will benefit from this not Intel or Nvidia
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/amds-heterogeneous-uniform-memory-access-coming-this-year-in-kaveri/




AMD's HSA also in next gen only AMD / ATI / Radeon will benefit from this not Intel or Nvidia
http://developer.amd.com/resources/heterogeneous-computing/what-is-heterogeneous-system-architecture-hsa/


AMD Open64 http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/cpu-development/x86-open64-compiler-suite/ and a video on it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-lW08Ff6Y very video good watch it



AMD true audio is also done on the new AMD r series GPU's basically it is a audio card built into the graphics card and does everything on graphics card.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7370/amd-announces-trueaudio-technology-for-upcoming-gpus


I forgot to also mention that AMD / ATI / Radeon graphics cards will also be able to run arbitrary code, allowing developers to run hundreds or thousands of parallelized tasks on the GPU / APU next gen AKA a form of direct compute.


PLZ I am trying to get a bit better understanding as to what this meens for next gen games I know better multithreading / also multi threaded rendering / and even bypassing the DirectX and OpenGL API altogether giving AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware 9x or more performance boost over Nvidia / Intel being stuck using directX / OpenGL API's. We also get AMD true audio bypassing the normal route for sound and doing it on the GPU rather than by CPU or anything else on motherboard.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 10/5/13 at 8:55am
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post #2 of 26
Going to subscribe to this myself.
I'm building a new computer at the moment, everybody seems to be raving about this announcement. 9X the performance? Surely not.
I'm a bit of an Intel/Nvidia fanboy, and I've just bought the 4770K for the new build half an hour ago.

The whole HSA thing got me interested in an AMD CPU, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.
But I don't think that would work with any current AMD CPU anyway?

I won't have a new GPU until early next year anyway, so I suppose I've got time to sit back and read the reviews for the new cards.
post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
The r290x graphics card is suppose to be upto 1 1/2 times the power of the Nvidia Titan before Mantle and other optimizations and such coming over from console to AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware.

http://www.game-debate.com/news/?news=8996&graphics=Radeon%20R9%20290X&title=Rumour:%20AMD%20R290X%20Benchmarks%20Leak%20-%20Faster%20Than%20Nvidia%20Titan
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post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

The r290x graphics card is suppose to be upto 1 1/2 times the power of the Nvidia Titan before Mantle and other optimizations and such coming over from console to AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware.

http://www.game-debate.com/news/?news=8996&graphics=Radeon%20R9%20290X&title=Rumour:%20AMD%20R290X%20Benchmarks%20Leak%20-%20Faster%20Than%20Nvidia%20Titan

That article is outdated and the author even says to take it with "a pinch of salt." The benchmarks show it being up to 10% faster than the Titan, the Titan 10% faster in one case. AMD's slides showed Firestrike score of 8000. The Titan is about 10% faster in Firestrike. No idea where you're getting up to 1 1/2 times. The 290X might trade blows with the Titan but it looks like +-10% at best before Mantle.
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post #5 of 26
50 rep with 16 being unique. Way to go there rick rolleyes.gif
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBAMF View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

The r290x graphics card is suppose to be upto 1 1/2 times the power of the Nvidia Titan before Mantle and other optimizations and such coming over from console to AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware.

http://www.game-debate.com/news/?news=8996&graphics=Radeon%20R9%20290X&title=Rumour:%20AMD%20R290X%20Benchmarks%20Leak%20-%20Faster%20Than%20Nvidia%20Titan

That article is outdated and the author even says to take it with "a pinch of salt." The benchmarks show it being up to 10% faster than the Titan, the Titan 10% faster in one case. AMD's slides showed Firestrike score of 8000. The Titan is about 10% faster in Firestrike. No idea where you're getting up to 1 1/2 times. The 290X might trade blows with the Titan but it looks like +-10% at best before Mantle.


well I was advised by a family member who works at AMD the R290x is a game changer and has a huge performance increase over normal due to optimizations / advancements to the GCN architecture and alot more added grunt behind it the added 512bit memory interface being one of them.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 10/3/13 at 9:17pm
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post #7 of 26
Quote:
EA and Activision have already said they will default with Mantle API on PC and if hardware is not AMD GCN architecture will fall back to directX or open GL which is a huge performance decrease Mantle offers upto 9x or more the perfomance boost on exact same Radeon / ATI / AMD hardware over directX or openGL and offers no performance increase for Intel / Nvidia at all.

Thats up to 9x Draw calls according to your first linked article. I believe that has to do with Wireframe / Geometry setup. A good thing yes, but only a small picture of the whole graphic pipeline procedure.


Quote:
PLZ I am trying to get a bit better understanding as to what this meens for next gen games I know better multithreading / also multi threaded rendering / and even bypassing the DirectX and OpenGL API altogether giving AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware 9x or more performance boost over Nvidia / Intel being stuck using directX / OpenGL API's. We also get AMD true audio bypassing the normal route for sound and doing it on the GPU rather than by CPU or anything else on motherboard.

From the reading and youtube I've had time to catch up on thus far. To me it looks like mantle will be a boost to any GPU/APU with GCN Arc. This doesn't affect CPU in itself so Intel/AMD cpu and discrete AMD GPU supporting Mantle should be the same performance. Intel and Nvidia GPU's not using Mantle will be held back a bit obviously.

I bet as soon as Mantle gets traction that Microsoft will come along and bully them with more activity with DirectX. Back in the OpenGL's API dominant years (windows 9x kernel days) It was going places but Microsoft was bullying /stifling them out of the marketplace with DX on purpose as being Open source this could mean Linux or another OS could compete for Users/Marketshare. Sadly it took alot of suffering with DX waiting for it to get caught up to OpenGL's performance and visuals. Even now OGL could do better if not beaten down by MS.

Another reason everyone needs to remember those 9x kernel days. Back then things could be performed at lower level access for Audio/Video and more access to lower protected memory. Many 3rd party developers would prove this to be a bad thing as it would lead up to many many more BSOD/GPF screens with this kind of access leading to bad and frustrating user experience with a unstable work enviroment. With usage of the Windows NT kernel you got less low-level access on purpose so MS would get blamed less for these BSOD/GPF's and increase Security that tarnish its 9x history. So here we are with Higher-level access so you get a better user experience from Windows OS'es even if that means less performance.

I do look forward to seeing what can happen with Mantle but with AMD will not hold my breath. They have a history of terrible legacy performance/support a even now have continued FrameTime issues that it seems to never be cleaned up with Beta drivers.
Edited by roguetrip - 9/30/13 at 6:46pm
post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roguetrip View Post

Quote:
EA and Activision have already said they will default with Mantle API on PC and if hardware is not AMD GCN architecture will fall back to directX or open GL which is a huge performance decrease Mantle offers upto 9x or more the perfomance boost on exact same Radeon / ATI / AMD hardware over directX or openGL and offers no performance increase for Intel / Nvidia at all.

Thats up to 9x Draw calls according to your first linked article. I believe that has to do with Wireframe / Geometry setup. A good thing yes, but only a small picture of the whole graphic pipeline procedure.


Quote:
PLZ I am trying to get a bit better understanding as to what this meens for next gen games I know better multithreading / also multi threaded rendering / and even bypassing the DirectX and OpenGL API altogether giving AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware 9x or more performance boost over Nvidia / Intel being stuck using directX / OpenGL API's. We also get AMD true audio bypassing the normal route for sound and doing it on the GPU rather than by CPU or anything else on motherboard.

From the reading and youtube I've had time to catch up on thus far. To me it looks like mantle will be a boost to any GPU/APU. This doesn't affect CPU code and I bet Intel won't be hurting by this.

I bet as soon as Mantle gets traction that Microsoft will come along and bully them with more activity with DirectX. Back in the OpenGL's API dominant years (windows 9x kernel days) It was going places but Microsoft was bullying /stifling them out of the marketplace with DX on purpose as being Open source this could mean Linux or another OS could compete for Users/Marketshare. Sadly it took alot of suffering with DX waiting for it to get caught up to OpenGL's performance and visuals. Even now OGL could do better if not beaten down by MS.

Another reason everyone needs to remember those 9x kernel days. Back then things could be performed at lower level access for Audo/Video and more access to lower protected memory. Many 3rd party developers would prove this to be a bad thing as it would lead up to many many more BSOD/GPF screens with this kind of access leading to bad and frustrating user experience. With usage of the Windows NT kernel you got less low-level access on purpose so MS would get blamed less for these BSOD/GPF's that tarnish its 9x history. So here we are with Higher-level access so you get a better user experience from Windows OS'es even if that means less performance.

I do look forward to seeing what can happen with Mantle but with AMD will not hold my breath. They have a history of terrible legacy performance/support a even now have continued FrameTime issues that it seems to never be cleaned up with Beta drivers.


I want to point this out the frame latency issue is not near as bad now and is actually better than Nvidias due to something called Frame Pacing AMD / ATI introduced via the 13.8 beta driver http://www.anandtech.com/show/7195/amd-frame-pacing-explorer-cat138 http://www.maximumpc.com/amd_delivers_frame_pacing_fix_driver_update135 be aware it also fixxes frame latency with single GPU's also with 13.9 full driver not beta.


you also need to keep in mind Mantle will only work with GCN architecture which is ATI / AMD / Radeon even though it is actually Open source Nvidia would have to make a whole new architecture to make use of it add to it Nvidia GPU's dont have the raw grunt force AMD / ATI / Radeon have.


also they are going to use the ATI APU / GPU to do computational and arbitary code,allowing developers to run hundreds or thousands of parallelized tasks.

basically the GPU will be far more important than the single threaded performance or IPC of the CPU and they will be doing also multi threaded rendering to share the work across multiple CPU cores so the need for a powerfull CPU per core will not be as important as a powerfull GPU with next gen game design add to it the other perks going for AMD / ATI and i want to point out ATI are the kings at doing the above said tasks look into it with bitcoin mining https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison compare a high end equivalent Nvidia card to an equal ATI / Radeon card you will see the ATI Radeon card literally double the raw processing power of the Nvidia if not more.

Example Nvidia GTX 680 is 110-120 Mhash's while ATI HD 7970 is 555-825 Mhash's that is a huge amount of processing power the ATI Radeon GPU can do 435-705 Mhash's more than equivalent Nvidia GTX 680 which is the closest contender to the hd 7970 performance wise they trade blows back and forth in games.

A GPU has a lot of cores (hundreds). Each core is basically able to compute one 32-bit arithmetic operation per clock cycle -- as a pipeline. Indeed, GPU's work well with extreme parallelism: when there are many identical work units to perform, actually many more than actual cores ("identical" meaning "same instructions", but not "same data").

GPU's achieve great performance by using heavy parallelism, with hundreds (if not thousands) of cores. This is made possible by pipelining (each individual operation takes many cycles to run, but successive operations can be launched like trucks on a highway) and sharing instruction decoding (since many cores will run the same instructions at the same time).


Also Mantle API will bring better multi threading and multi threaded rendering out of the box that the dev's dont have to adjust or tamper with and only AMD will get this benefit again Mantle will only benefit AMD / ATI / Radeon hardware with GCN architecture as of now.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 9/30/13 at 7:06pm
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post #9 of 26
Are you sure you're not a AMD PR Rep. LOL

GK104 Kepler is actually weaker at Compute vs. Fermi arch. Keplers aim was gaming and power saving which has worked out pretty well for it so far.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-performance-review,3442-10.html - This page shows Titan is alot better at mining than GTX680 but still not a match for AMD.

Just want to see where compute really takes play with mantle though.
post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roguetrip View Post

Are you sure you're not a AMD PR Rep. LOL

GK104 Kepler is actually weaker at Compute vs. Fermi arch. Keplers aim was gaming and power saving which has worked out pretty well for it so far.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-performance-review,3442-10.html - This page shows Titan is alot better at mining than GTX680 but still not a match for AMD.

Just want to see where compute really takes play with mantle though.

HAHAHA I am not a AMD PR Rep I just wanted to throw facts that direct compute will be a factor next gen and well AMD Radeon hold the crown in raw grunt horsepower . I imagine the R290X will drastically up that horsepower given it is around 3000 stream processing units up there with Nvidia titan and then some and keep in mind the HD 7970 only had 2048 stream processors while R290X is around 3000 add Mantle and also better advancements in GCN architecture facts could be very interesting on the amount of grunt computing horsepower it could have likely nearly double present making it able to do around 1000+ Mhash's vs Nvidia GTX Titans 312 Mhash's overclocked the Hd 7970 easily gets 566 Mhash's stock and if overclocked properly gets 825 Mhash's funny thing is a ATI HD 7790 overclocked gets 325 Mhash's which is more than the Titan so it could be staggering the amount of raw power next gen Radeon cards could have.

Nvidia Titan 312 Mhash's $1000 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121724 VS AMD Rdeon HD 7790 325 Mhash's $109 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814129275 at raw processing grunt horsepower the Radeon HD 7790 wins that is nearly a $900 price difference and a huge performance gap yet the Inferior entry LVL Radeon beats the Titan in raw computing power go figure. Look it up for yourself https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison Titan isnt in there but going by roquetrip's link Titan gets only 312 Mhash's.

Nvidia Titan specs http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-titan/specifications 2688 cores

AMD / ATI / Radeon HD 7970 http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/7000/7970/Pages/radeon-7970.aspx#3 2048 cores

AMD Radeon R290X is around 3000 cores with a major advancement to GCN architecture from what I was told is a game changer to the way things have been I was told the increase is very significant and he said literally cant even explain how much of an increase performance wise it is it was so much the only way he could explain was this it is equivalent to a 3 generation jump all at once in the top tier LVL.

These can add to an advancement in PC performance that will lean towards AMD / ATI / Radeon heavily. I also want to state Nvidia Titan is 384 bit memory interface while the next gen AMD Radeon R290X is 512 bit memory interface both are PCI E 3.0.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 9/30/13 at 9:39pm
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  • How or will AMD Mantle API, HSA, AMD True audio, AMD open64 compiler, and HUMA change next gen gaming for PC and console games
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