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Mixing Alu and Cooper Is Fine, If You Anodize Right (WRONG)

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
I don't know if this is the right section of not so Mods Feel free to move it.

I can not believe how low Asus has went to actually put this up as a statement. I can not say anything is wrong but they never say it is ok to do this. Just a bunch of words and test that has nothing to do with galvanic corrosion just makes people believe wrongly that using the M/B block on their motherboard is ok to use in a copper water cooling system. And it is not..

Can any one believe the depth to which Asus has sunk to put propaganda out like this. I do not think I will ever buy another Asus product again...

Here is article Mixing Alu and Cooper Is Fine, If You Anodize Right if you would like to read it...

the bad thing is they will get away with it and most people will believe them because they do not understand galvanic corrosion, I am not a expert but I understand the principle and fight this everyday at My work..

One example. we replace so seawater lines with stainless pipe, the stainless was connected to the mild steal grade 80 pipe and in less that a year galvanic corrosion had destroyed the stainless pipe and it was leaking all over the place. they did not use the isolation kits to isolate electrically the stainless from the mild steel.

if it works like that with 2 similar metals imagine what it is doing with copper and aluminum??
post #2 of 10
What a crappy test, they should have learned from Gigabyte years ago that aluminum blocks aren't a good idea in copper loops.
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post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

What a crappy test, they should have learned from Gigabyte years ago that aluminum blocks aren't a good idea in copper loops.

chimp the bad thing is most people will read this and then think it is ok. everything is worded so what they say is right but completely misleading.

Even the title is right. if you really want to read into it it says Anodize and this could be argued by a legal team that this is correct because Anodize is when you place anodes in metals like this to be sacrificial.

But for the common person that reads it it say it is all ok!!


I think I will not be buying anymore Asus products!!!
Edited by seross69 - 10/11/13 at 6:37pm
post #4 of 10
It appears to me that the LARGEST ERROR of their testing is ................wait for it............................the Freaking copper!!! where is the copper??
Also they spray a solution?? Do they even know how to make a galvanic cell?
I mean cmon, we aren't using evaporative coolers here.
They have to put that POS into contact in an electrolyte with copper. proof.gif

jerry.gif Where is a facepalm smiley??

Test is a fail.

It will be fine tho if you use an ALL aluminium loop. will last theoretically 3 years thumb.gif
Edited by DaaQ - 10/11/13 at 7:30pm
post #5 of 10
The WC purist who will never use anything else but pure distilled water I can understand being concerned w/o some "track record" having been established in the PC industry for anodized aluminum.

But if we are going to worry about this ..... shouldn't we also be concerned about the tin solder (95% tin / 5% antimony) in the radiators ????? Or even the silver used as biocide ? Tin will sacrifice itself to the copper ..... copper will sacrifice itself to the silver.

Corrosion Indexes:

Silver: 0.15
Copper: 0.35
Tin: 0.65
Aluminum: 0.75

Corrosion index for "bare" aluminum is 40, Tin solder in the rad is 30 and, the silver is 20. The direct metal to metal contact between the copper and tin in the rad (index 30) is of more concern to me than the indirect (via fluid only ..... and with a fluid which is close to electrolytically inert if inhibitor present) contact of the anodized aluminum (Index 40..... if exposed).

Three things are needed for galvanic corrosion

1. Dissimilar metals
2. They metals must be in contact (direct metal to metals or indirect via electrolyte)
3. The must be an electrolyte

The aluminum cross chill would certainly be a concern if it had no coating and if we had a strong electrolyte. For us to have a problem here, we'd have to:

A. Have a complete failure of the coating .... the salt spray test certainly shows high durability. Anodizing is often used in high speed machinery parts to increase durability and wear resistance. It is a very hard coating. We are not running an abrasive sand slurry through these loops.
B. Have an electrolyte.... while DW has no electrolytic properties on the day you fill the loop, that advantage is lost in a week. The use of a corrosion inhibitor renders the fluid electrically inert.
C. The ASTM salt spray test simulated 3 years of exposure in a "corrosive environment" .... a water cooling loop is by no stretch of the imagination a "corrosive environment".

When dissimilar metals are present there is always the potential for corrosion. In the OPs message, the example of the SS and mild steel is a good example but not relevant as they took no steps to address corrosion potential.

1. They did not use di-electric couplings.
2. A very strong electrolyte was present (salt water)
3. There were no protective coatings.

I have been designing, managing and refitting water, power and wastewater plants with piping systems constructed of dissimilar metals for over 30 years As a result, I have had direct long term experience with anodized aluminum in highly corrosive and even abrasive environments. Based upon that experience, I have 0 concerns with the Cross Chill. Anyone who owns car should be in a position to judge whether the presence of dissimilar metals in a closed loop water system can be managed without everything going south.

If any concern exists in this regard:

1. Be careful assembling G1/4 barbs/fittings to Cross Chill making sure not to mis-thread. If fittings show resistance to turning, teflon tape will reduce resistance to friction (not needed for sealing).
2. Do not expose the Cross Chill interior surfaces to sharp, pointie metal things.
3. Make sure you use a corrosion inhibitor .... just in case.

What's the worse that can happen ? As aluminum is the sacrificial metal, it's the aluminum that will corrode, not the copper / bronze.....in fact, it's presence will protect the tin solder. If you have electrolytes in ya coolant and if the coating is somehow abraded, your cross chill block will show pitting (call Asus for replacement) and you'll have to clean some of the aluminum oxide fuzz from ya loop by flushing with vinegar solution.
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post #6 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

The WC purist who will never use anything else but pure distilled water I can understand being concerned w/o some "track record" having been established in the PC industry for anodized aluminum. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
But if we are going to worry about this ..... shouldn't we also be concerned about the tin solder (95% tin / 5% antimony) in the radiators ????? Or even the silver used as biocide ? Tin will sacrifice itself to the copper ..... copper will sacrifice itself to the silver.

Corrosion Indexes:

Silver: 0.15
Copper: 0.35
Tin: 0.65
Aluminum: 0.75

Corrosion index for "bare" aluminum is 40, Tin solder in the rad is 30 and, the silver is 20. The direct metal to metal contact between the copper and tin in the rad (index 30) is of more concern to me than the indirect (via fluid only ..... and with a fluid which is close to electrolytically inert if inhibitor present) contact of the anodized aluminum (Index 40..... if exposed).

Three things are needed for galvanic corrosion

1. Dissimilar metals
2. They metals must be in contact (direct metal to metals or indirect via electrolyte)
3. The must be an electrolyte

The aluminum cross chill would certainly be a concern if it had no coating and if we had a strong electrolyte. For us to have a problem here, we'd have to:

A. Have a complete failure of the coating .... the salt spray test certainly shows high durability. Anodizing is often used in high speed machinery parts to increase durability and wear resistance. It is a very hard coating. We are not running an abrasive sand slurry through these loops.
B. Have an electrolyte.... while DW has no electrolytic properties on the day you fill the loop, that advantage is lost in a week. The use of a corrosion inhibitor renders the fluid electrically inert.
C. The ASTM salt spray test simulated 3 years of exposure in a "corrosive environment" .... a water cooling loop is by no stretch of the imagination a "corrosive environment".

When dissimilar metals are present there is always the potential for corrosion. In the OPs message, the example of the SS and mild steel is a good example but not relevant as they took no steps to address corrosion potential.

1. They did not use di-electric couplings.
2. A very strong electrolyte was present (salt water)
3. There were no protective coatings.

I have been designing, managing and refitting water, power and wastewater plants with piping systems constructed of dissimilar metals for over 30 years As a result, I have had direct long term experience with anodized aluminum in highly corrosive and even abrasive environments. Based upon that experience, I have 0 concerns with the Cross Chill. Anyone who owns car should be in a position to judge whether the presence of dissimilar metals in a closed loop water system can be managed without everything going south.

If any concern exists in this regard:

1. Be careful assembling G1/4 barbs/fittings to Cross Chill making sure not to mis-thread. If fittings show resistance to turning, teflon tape will reduce resistance to friction (not needed for sealing).
2. Do not expose the Cross Chill interior surfaces to sharp, pointie metal things.
3. Make sure you use a corrosion inhibitor .... just in case.

What's the worse that can happen ? As aluminum is the sacrificial metal, it's the aluminum that will corrode, not the copper / bronze.....in fact, it's presence will protect the tin solder. If you have electrolytes in ya coolant and if the coating is somehow abraded, your cross chill block will show pitting (call Asus for replacement) and you'll have to clean some of the aluminum oxide fuzz from ya loop by flushing with vinegar solutio
n.

I work in the offshore petroleum industry and also have a lot of practical experience with this but never used or been exposed to anodized aluminum so thank you for this. I thought if it was dissimilar metals it did not matter how hard there were. I really enjoyed reading your post and explanations and learned a lot from it. But one question I do have is the anodized aluminum is hardened aluminum right? it is so hard it will not corrode if i read right. then why did the stainless as it is hardened steel also. just trying to learn. both pipes were coated and yes they did not install the di-electric couplings or isolation kits. It just amazed me that this happened and cost us a lot of money (the stainless pipe was paper thin really no corrosion growth like you see inside mild steel pipes and less than a year earlier this was schedule 80 pipe that was bought from US and not china made) .. So I studied it and tried to teach myself this. So I am no expert on this is for sure. just trying to learn so I am not disagreeing with you just want some knowledge.

I was basing my knowledge of anodized aluminum on my experience with cast aluminum. and I know after about 1 week of being exposed to the elements that it is already getting a white film on it..

Even if it is ok like you said the test and explanation was pure marketing propaganda to me because you spray stainless with salt water for 216 hours and then let it be exposed to the air and it will have signs of rust on it with in a week and could not see anodized aluminum being better than this. but most people would not understand the explanation you gave so maybe this best just keep it simple stupid.
post #7 of 10
Anodized aluminum is not hardened aluminum. It's not a harder alloy, it's a chemically coated dye by a process of anodization. It's a process to make aluminum oxide layer thicker to pasivate it just like we do with the raw copper blocks to stay shiny longer. A dye can be added to the bath. The thickness of coating is usually measured in microns, just like nickel- or chrome plating of copper.
    
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post #8 of 10
its fine if you have a sacrificial metal or non conductive fluid

still LOL @ salt spray testing. obviously nothing would happen just from salt sprays without flowing liquid with mixed metals.

oxidized aluminum has a layer of oxide that protects itself but it wont function in a mixed metal loop where you are essentially making a battery and the flow of electrons are what destroys the metal
Edited by akromatic - 10/12/13 at 3:18am
post #9 of 10
Uh, I feel so stupid now wink.gif Great lecture from all of you guys, thanks a lot, I have learned a lot!
I have used the anodized aluminium tank from Zalman cooling kit in my loop with 1 copper, 1 nickel waterblocks as well as 2 copper radiators and brass fittings for 2 months... All that been used with corrosion inhibitors of course and no corrosion appeared. I should have taken some photos of the blocks when I stripped the loop down. It simply means, that if the right precautions are being taken no galvanic corrosion would appear, so Asus in his thinking would not be completely wrong.
I am not an expert like you guys, so please take my opinion on it with a pinch of salt smile.gif
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post #10 of 10
1. Anodized aluminum is not hardened aluminum per say.
Quote:
Anodizing (also spelled "anodising", particularly in the UK and Australia) is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts.

The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated forms the anode electrode of an electrical circuit. Anodizing increases corrosion resistance and wear resistance, and provides better adhesion for paint primers and glues than does bare metal. Anodic films can also be used for a number of cosmetic effects, either with thick porous coatings that can absorb dyes or with thin transparent coatings that add interference effects to reflected light.

Anodization changes the microscopic texture of the surface and changes the crystal structure of the metal near the surface. Thick coatings are normally porous, so a sealing process is often needed to achieve corrosion resistance. Anodized aluminium surfaces, for example, are harder than aluminium but have low to moderate wear resistance that can be improved with increasing thickness or by applying suitable sealing substances. Anodic films are generally much stronger and more adherent than most types of paint and metal plating, but also more brittle. This makes them less likely to crack and peel from aging and wear, but more susceptible to cracking from thermal stress.

2. Hardness is unrelated to corrosion..... gold for example is very soft and doesnt corrode at all

3. After anodizing the aluminum is coated .... otherwise, the finish can be rather unappealing and it helps seal the pores left by the electrolytic process

4. Salt spays test is extremely useful it determining the stability of the coating. The coating in and of itself protects the aluminum. As long as that coating integrity is maintained, galvanic corrosion will not occur.... as long as the coolant contains no electrolytes or is rendered inert by inhibitors, galvanic corrosion will not occur. Again, with the direct metal to contact between the tin solder and copper rads, I'd use an inhibitor on every system. But if ya not worried about that, and remember that contact is UNDER any manufacturer applied coating, I wouldn't worry about the anodized aluminum cross chill.
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