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Gaming and mouse response BIOS optimization guide for modern PC hardware - Page 139

post #1381 of 3099
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

About the BFS scheduler

I didn't notice a difference in BFS and CFS, but I was using different DEs at the time, and the DE has 10x more effect than the scheduler. I felt the same way with regular kernel vs low latency kernel. In other words, no changes are noticeable unless you run Openbox with no desktop environment, because desktop environment implementation is garbage in Linux. The cursor also feels like it's operating with lower granularity than Windows for some reason.

Another issue is that if you change system settings while using gnome, then boot to openbox instead, settings such as xinput, and others, will all change or revert back to default. Even the soundcard seems to change settings at random, so your sound may or may not still function. This means if SteamOS takes off, but they give you non-optimal factory settings, changing to gnome desktop to try and change the underlying OS, then going back to Steam will only work for some things and not others.

I'm done with Linux for now. It does everything the opposite of how things should be. Things that should be compartmentalized and function regardless of how you set up the system aren't, such as specific apps being locked to desktop environments, and things that shouldn't be compartmentalized are, such as even some Nvidia control panel settings only affecting one desktop environment and not being a system setting.

The only way Linux can be functional is if it comes out with a standardized, efficient, hardware accelerated desktop, that can then be skinned or modded to create the looks people want. Right now it's just a giant herd of people mindlessly wasting their time all working on different desktops that have no future. I don't see SteamOS being useful at all unless they fork away from all upstream changes like OSX, which means it might be a decent gaming system 1.5-2 years from now if they decided to do that today.

Made a post about Linux in the mouse section too: http://www.overclock.net/t/1548204/linux-the-clown-os
post #1382 of 3099
Dude! People will never fuse their groups up into one single group. You can forget about having just one desktop. It'll never happen. That "systemd" project which is growing and absorbing more and more tasks all the time might fix some of the stuff behind the scenes. You would then hopefully only have to learn how to configure that (like soundcard for example).

Perhaps one business might at some point try to sell PCs with their own environment instead of Windows (so like Apple basically). They could then use Linux stuff as their starting point. They wouldn't have to sell a lot to instantly be the number one desktop with regards to user base.

I don't think SteamOS is that business as it's just for the living room where things are very different. You are sitting far away from the screen on a couch and the input device is wireless and the TV probably processes and delays everything it displays. Their goals are probably just to try to keep latency in check and they care more about things appearing smooth on the TV like never terrible drops in framerates and no stutter in the animations. Those are goals where you might even intentionally introduce buffering and delays?
post #1383 of 3099
Is input lag really that big of a deal? With everything that I need to turn off for reduced lag it seems I would be loosing a lot more and only gaining a few milliseconds of decreased lag. There seems to be no real way to tell input lag unless you have a CRT monitor along with your normal gaming screen.

Major kudos to r0ach as he seems to know and understand quite a bit about this and is concerned enough to do some serious explaining, but what does it make a difference in? I have never noticed lag in any game I play (unless I am pushing beyond my system specs) and everything I do with my mouse or keyboard seems to happen instantaneously. The only "lag" I ever seem to experience is when I simply fail to act fast enough.

Please note it is not my intention to put anyone down but I am just trying to understand how milliseconds of input lag could make any kind of real difference.

If your playing a multiplayer game online there is a good chance most (if not all) of the people on your server are from some other state or continent. I would think the lag from distance would be more prevalent than the milliseconds of input lag.
post #1384 of 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

Is input lag really that big of a deal? With everything that I need to turn off for reduced lag it seems I would be loosing a lot more and only gaining a few milliseconds of decreased lag. There seems to be no real way to tell input lag unless you have a CRT monitor along with your normal gaming screen.

Major kudos to r0ach as he seems to know and understand quite a bit about this and is concerned enough to do some serious explaining, but what does it make a difference in? I have never noticed lag in any game I play (unless I am pushing beyond my system specs) and everything I do with my mouse or keyboard seems to happen instantaneously. The only "lag" I ever seem to experience is when I simply fail to act fast enough.

Please note it is not my intention to put anyone down but I am just trying to understand how milliseconds of input lag could make any kind of real difference.

If your playing a multiplayer game online there is a good chance most (if not all) of the people on your server are from some other state or continent. I would think the lag from distance would be more prevalent than the milliseconds of input lag.

What does 1ms lag matter?, did you say 2ms? why not add another 3 ms

Oh this is just another 4 ms on top

This one is 8 ms, that one 10 ms, other one 12 ms

Suddenly you're very far behind.
Why not play on 10 fps while were at it?, i mean the picture still moves right


After just a few ms (imo 10~) youll be at a major disadvantage against an equal skilled player with the same network latency, kinda like having a race on a bicycle against a motorcycle

Some things in this post might be blown a little out of proportion to make the bottom line statement sink in
post #1385 of 3099
I see your point.

But, I don't see any effect on my system. I don't have a problem with lag and I am running windows 8.1 pro with a 4930k cpu off a X79 MB. I use USB 3.0 for a few things and I have not done any of the fixes to change any of the stuff it is recommended to change at the beginning of this thread and I don't see any lag.

If your saying this thread is more of a statement board to gather followers so developers don't get out of hand with this then I understand.

I currently play all my games at 60fps because my monitor doesn't support anything higher but I am getting the ASUS VG248QE monitor soon enough. That has a 144 hrz refresh rate and it has Gsync. I have heard nothing but good stuff about Gsync up until this thread.

I am not trying to troll I am just trying to understand.
post #1386 of 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

Is input lag really that big of a deal? With everything that I need to turn off for reduced lag it seems I would be loosing a lot more and only gaining a few milliseconds of decreased lag. There seems to be no real way to tell input lag unless you have a CRT monitor along with your normal gaming screen.

Major kudos to r0ach as he seems to know and understand quite a bit about this and is concerned enough to do some serious explaining, but what does it make a difference in? I have never noticed lag in any game I play (unless I am pushing beyond my system specs) and everything I do with my mouse or keyboard seems to happen instantaneously. The only "lag" I ever seem to experience is when I simply fail to act fast enough.

Please note it is not my intention to put anyone down but I am just trying to understand how milliseconds of input lag could make any kind of real difference.

If your playing a multiplayer game online there is a good chance most (if not all) of the people on your server are from some other state or continent. I would think the lag from distance would be more prevalent than the milliseconds of input lag.

You know... first of all it's really all about your enjoyment. If you are happy with your stuff and everything appears to work correctly, isn't everything fine? This thread of r0ach here, he collected and shared a list of everything he ever thought might do weird stuff to his mouse "feel", and that's useful to look through. I liked experimenting with it, but I'm also not really feeling any difference with most stuff.

I feel you might be a bit mistaken about that "milliseconds of input lag" you are thinking about. On a normally working wired mouse using a 1000Hz or 500Hz connection, the sensor's readings will always get produced and received very close to when your actual hand movements happened, close to no delay there. Even a little input lag should be very noticeable and it's definitely never something like several milliseconds if the mouse feels fine. There's two people or so that tried to measure this with an actual hardware setup, and both got boring results, meaning 1-2ms delay, exactly what you'd expect from 1000Hz and 500Hz. The things here in this thread are really about something else, perhaps something like some sort of stutter when the measurements are taken (some delayed, some not)?

That's all just about the mouse movement coordinates themselves. Inside your games, there can be a lot of input lag from low FPS or the graphics card buffering stuff and then waiting on VSync etc. Those can produce dozens of milliseconds of input lag for looking around in a first-person-game. Everything about that, that's definitely something you have to look into!

But r0ach here actually says there's also differences in how the (hardware) mouse pointer itself moves around with some of the settings. You need to check that out and decide for yourself. I can't really feel anything about that, but sometimes I'm unsure, like I swear there's something more "fresh" about the mouse pointer on a Linux desktop compared to Windows (of course there's nothing wrong objectively, the mouse pointer appears to be perfectly tied to my hand movement, starts moving instantly).
Edited by deepor - 3/28/15 at 7:54pm
post #1387 of 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

You know... first of all it's really all about your enjoyment. If you are happy with your stuff and everything appears to work correctly, isn't everything fine? This thread of r0ach here, he collected and shared a list of everything he ever thought might do weird stuff to his mouse "feel", and that's useful to look through. I liked experimenting with it, but I'm also not really feeling any difference with most stuff.

I feel you might be a bit mistaken about that "milliseconds of input lag" you are thinking about. On a normally working wired mouse using a 1000Hz or 500Hz connection, the sensor's readings will always get produced and received very close to when your actual hand movements happened, close to no delay there. Even a little input lag should be very noticeable and it's definitely never something like several milliseconds if the mouse feels fine. There's two people or so that tried to measure this with an actual hardware setup, and both got boring results, meaning 1-2ms delay, exactly what you'd expect from 1000Hz and 500Hz. The things here in this thread are really about something else, perhaps something like some sort of stutter when the measurements are taken (some delayed, some not)?

That's all just about the mouse movement coordinates themselves. Inside your games, there can be a lot of input lag from low FPS or the graphics card buffering stuff and then waiting on VSync etc. Those can produce dozens of milliseconds of input lag for looking around in a first-person-game. Everything about that, that's definitely something you have to look into!

But r0ach here actually says there's also differences in how the (hardware) mouse pointer itself moves around with some of the settings. You need to check that out and decide for yourself. I can't really feel anything about that, but sometimes I'm unsure, like I swear there's something's more "fresh" about the mouse pointer on a Linux desktop compared to Windows (of course there's nothing wrong objectively, the mouse pointer appears to be perfectly tied to my hand movement, starts moving instantly).

That is what I was gathering but I wanted to ensure I was getting the right idea. This is still all good to know.

Thank you for your explanation!
post #1388 of 3099
It's also about your point of reference. If you are running a vanilla machine your senses just aren't very tuned to this stuff. I think someone in this thread wrote that he doesn't believe anyone can feel the difference between 500 and 1k hz. Most here would probably argue against that. When I had the DA 1800 dpi there was a bug in the firmware where it set from 1k to 500 hz. Took me days to figure out. Also the p55 chipset had uneven hz. So uneven in fact that it would greatly affect your performance in games. So it can be helpful to be sensitive to this stuff sometimes although mostly I don't think the difference is very big between a r0achtuned system or not.

Also I don't find I give up anything. I need to enable my print spooler manually when I want to print something. They keyboard that I have by my coach doesn't have a working volume slider. My usb doesn't transfer quite as fast. Neither of these things bother me much compared to how nice it is to have a very responsive system.
post #1389 of 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

[...]

If your playing a multiplayer game online there is a good chance most (if not all) of the people on your server are from some other state or continent. I would think the lag from distance would be more prevalent than the milliseconds of input lag.

Network latency isn't comparable to input lag. Input lag always happens locally and isn't just affected by milliseconds: microseconds make a difference too, and also how the computer's hardware interacts with each other, interrupt and DPC latency, stability, etc. I'm not saying that network latency isn't important, or doesn't have it's peculiarities outside of raw latency, it's just that it's a different beast, and most of the time you can't do anything, or much at all, to improve it.

Individual perception matters too: when you get your 144Hz monitor you will see the difference immediately, and 60Hz won't be playable to you anymore, at least not for competitive multiplayer games. So the bottom line is that everything feels 'instant' until you know/have it better. wink.gif
Edited by Trull - 3/29/15 at 4:40am
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Samsung 840 Pro Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Home Basic IBM P275 
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post #1390 of 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trull View Post

Network latency isn't comparable to input lag. Input lag always happens locally and isn't just affected by milliseconds: microseconds make a difference too, and also how the computer's hardware interacts with each other, interrupt and DPC latency, stability, etc. I'm not saying that network latency isn't important, or doesn't have it's peculiarities outside of raw latency, it's just that it's a different beast, and most of the time you can't do anything, or much at all, to improve it.

Individual perception matters too: when you get your 144Hz monitor you will see the difference immediately, and 60Hz won't be playable to you anymore, at least not for competitive multiplayer games. So the bottom line is that everything feels 'instant' until you know/have it better. wink.gif

It was mentioned somewhere on this thread about the combination of network lag and the lag on their system. I can't find it right now but that was the point in my statement about network lag being more impactful.

I don't actually play many multiplayer games, one or two here and there. I was playing Titanfall for a bit but the action got so chaotic after awhile that the game lost its appeal for me. I really don't care for PVP, but prefer co-op for anything online. I really like games where people have to work together towards a goal, not try and slaughter each other for "braggiing" rights. The last games I really played online multiplayer extensively were Halo 2 (Xbox) and Quake 3 (PC). There was something about them that made them much more fun than the chaos of today's games. Maybe it's because there are way to many people at one time in a game that makes it so chaotic. Speaking of Quake 3, I installed it last year on my previous gaming machine and I had to turn the mouse sensitivity way down because the game was so quick and responsive that I could not get a good bead on anything.I hadn't played it in about 9 or 10 years and I realized that the real hard level was not for me anymore....lol.

I like RTS and RPG games, but usually never play multiplayer. I play Diablo 3 and am close to finishing the game but don't play multiplayer. I had a bad experience with Diablo 2 online multiplayer (people cheating and what not). I know the people running the servers have got a real good grip on the cheaters but there is still a few that find a way to cheat every now and then and it really ruins the game for me.

I remember a while back in the early 2000's having trouble with input lag, all I remember is it was really annoying. I don't remember what the cause of the issue was but I believe it had something to do with driver conflicts.
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