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Gaming and mouse response BIOS optimization guide for modern PC hardware - Page 355

post #3541 of 3611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post

I play boarderless mode because cs go doesn't see my custom fresh rate (apply freshrate at desktop, run game boarderless) with no framerate cap in game (300-500fps)
Use Custom Resolution Utility. Remove all 60Hz options of resolution you want to use. Then add new resolution at overclocked refresh rate.

If your default res is 1920x1080@60Hz, for example, then you want to delete 1920x1080 @60Hz options from Detailed Resolution and from Standard Resolutions:


Then add resolution in Detailed resolutions and set refresh rate and settings you want:


I ran into this problem myself few years ago and that's exactly the only reason why I use CRU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post

The only way I've seen DWM disabled is a app that runs in the background that forces new windows to run 2d mode. It breaks SETTINGS, STORE, NETWORK SETTINGS, and sometimes causes the start menu to not work.
Yes, that's why you want to play fullscreen only.
post #3542 of 3611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

If there is triple buffering present + Vsync, its quite good scenario.
It isn't a good scenario in any competitive reaction game, let it be CSGO, Overwatch or any other. That 12ms difference is a huge difference, especially when you bunch it up with all other tweaks in this and other threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

Anyway the results in the list dont make much sense, as refresh rate 77hz equals 12.98ms for one cycle.
With all due respect, universe and everything in it is under no obligation to make sense to you. When it works like that, it will work like that and be true either it makes sense to you or not, and either you believe in it or not.

Also, results do make sense. I didn't take one sample. I took 1000+ samples with each setting, 5000+ samples in total. Delays between tests was also randomized between 100 and 300ms.

That ~12ms difference in tests between fullscreen(overriding DWM tripple buffering setting) and borderless(with triple buffering) make perfect sense at 77 Hz.
That's exactly that time 12ms which it takes to fully refresh LCD +-~1 ms error. Before I was making these tests, that was about the number I expected to get - about time of one full refresh of LCD, that's your VSync at work.
I understand that error of one single sample can be +-12.98ms. But if you take 1000+ samples, it negates that error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

The results however indicate that there might be present stuttering (one frame presented twice as long) which occurs in cases when game does not run on 77fps constantly.
Well, I didn't measure frame times. I measured motion to photon latency. AFAIK these additional spikes to 30ms+ could be caused by anything, like, some laggy driver of USB Controller.

I should've taken tasts using CRT monitor, precision would be better.
post #3543 of 3611
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KulaGGin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post

I play boarderless mode because cs go doesn't see my custom fresh rate (apply freshrate at desktop, run game boarderless) with no framerate cap in game (300-500fps)
Use Custom Resolution Utility. Remove all 60Hz options of resolution you want to use. Then add new resolution at overclocked refresh rate.

If your default res is 1920x1080@60Hz, for example, then you want to delete 1920x1080 @60Hz options from Detailed Resolution and from Standard Resolutions:


Then add resolution in Detailed resolutions and set refresh rate and settings you want:


I ran into this problem myself few years ago and that's exactly the only reason why I use CRU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post

The only way I've seen DWM disabled is a app that runs in the background that forces new windows to run 2d mode. It breaks SETTINGS, STORE, NETWORK SETTINGS, and sometimes causes the start menu to not work.
Yes, that's why you want to play fullscreen only.


Thanks, instead of deleting default 60hz I just add new resolution with custom hz. I always used boarderless mode so it's easier to access the desktop but now I try 3200x1800 @ 75hz fullscreen as it seems to be a sweet spot (99% GPU usage) while 1080p = 40%
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A-DATA SP900 2x ST2000DM001-1ER164 ASMedia® ASM1061 (External) Swiftech H320 
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post #3544 of 3611
To KulaGGin:
You should put all your replies in exaclty opposite order and logic as well.

1. You said that 12ms is a huge difference.
Reaction time of a human is 150-250ms. 150ms or slightly less is for highly trained gamers.

2. You said that you made thousands of samples,
Thats fine, but if you made 1000 samples it does not negate bad measuring method.

3. You admitted that measuring method is based on USB.
Since USB is CPU dependant you have absolutely no idea what you did measured. You could as well measured CPU load.


If you want to make excelsheet you created you have to be absolutely sure about following input data:

a) FPS
it HAS to be exactly 77FPS

b) Display Refresh rate
It HAS to be exactly 77hz.

in such situaiton you can be sure that 3d engine and computer is able to swap front and backbuffer images at expected pace.

If those input data are NOT like above, whole measuring will NOT tell you any diference between Vsync + triple buffer and unsynced image. You will get only info that your PC is not able to deliver FPS at expected refresh rate.
post #3545 of 3611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

1. You said that 12ms is a huge difference.
Reaction time of a human is 150-250ms. 150ms or slightly less is for highly trained gamers.
Right. But there's also this: what is motion to photon latency.
Aiming with 50ms latency will be so much worse than with 5ms latency, because at 50ms latency there will be no feeling of presence. That's why 50FPS is so bad compared to 400. At 50FPS there's only 20ms of additional input lag and at 200 FPS there's only 5ms additional lag. Difference is only 15ms. You don't see pros playing at 50 FPS, right? Any good player will tell you that 50 FPS feels very bad compared to 200.
Take a game at 200 FPS, artificially add 15ms of motion to photon latency and you will get almost the same bad feeling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

3. You admitted that measuring method is based on USB.
Since USB is CPU dependant you have absolutely no idea what you did measured. You could as well measured CPU load.
I know exactly what I measured. I measured motion to photon latencies on my PC and difference in these latencies between 2 different options: DWM On and DWM Off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

If you want to make excelsheet you created you have to be absolutely sure about following input data:
a) FPS
it HAS to be exactly 77FPS

b) Display Refresh rate
It HAS to be exactly 77hz.

in such situaiton you can be sure that 3d engine and computer is able to swap front and backbuffer images at expected pace.

If those input data are NOT like above, whole measuring will NOT tell you any diference between Vsync + triple buffer and unsynced image. You will get only info that your PC is not able to deliver FPS at expected refresh rate.
Well, I've done another test on humanbenchmark.com, which is a little different test to what I did before, but here are the results: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
If all of these results don't convince you that VSync is present in borderless and that it does affect motion to photon latency in a very bad way, nothing will.

I posted these results not for deniers but for people who want to decrease their input lag and know how to evaluate results from tests. I personally couldn't find on the internet this particular test(DWM Off vs On), so I've done one myself.

A lot of people play in borderless and are convinced that it does not increase motion to photon latency, which in fact it does, as shown in the results above.
Edited by KulaGGin - 12/19/17 at 7:52am
post #3546 of 3611
According data , you definitely measured stutter which occurs in Vsync+Triple buffering scenario, when FPS runs below display refresh rate. Sorry.

Its perfecltly clear from alternating high and low values, however because those are not 12.98ms increments, but rather random ones, its clear the input data (render) is not delivering data to display in constant rate.
Edited by Offler - 12/19/17 at 7:59am
post #3547 of 3611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

According data , you definitely measured stutter which occurs in Vsync+Triple buffering scenario, when FPS runs below display refresh rate. Sorry.
Well, feel free to make your own tests and show us. But before that it's just a bunch of fancy words supported with 0 evidence.
post #3548 of 3611
Don't decrease power limit in msi afterburner it will increase your input lag

I test that on overwatch and sim increase when I decreases power limit
post #3549 of 3611
Hi Guys, long time lurker.

I want to run my setup by you as I'm having constant spikes from 5-6ns to 38/40/58/100ns back and forth on a highly tweaked, optimized and scrubbed system.

-windows 8.1 manually scrubbed down to about 16GB disk utilization and tweaked config - specs in sig
-all bios power saving/C-states off, locked voltage and clockspeed, MANUAL voltage and locked multiplier, all MOSFET settings set to manual/extreme
-hyperthreading disabled
-HPET off in BIOS, I believe the bcdedit tweak to disable it in OS has been done as well
-all onboard devices disabled in BIOS except USB3 (audio = PCIe soundcard, LAN = PCIe Intel CT NIC)
-all windows features disabled except .Net, remote differential compression and SMB 1.0
-highly tweaked services config, very little set to automatic, most set to manual/disabled:


-NOTHING is running at startup except realtemp (via task scheduler)
-seems to be Nvidia driver related so I extracted nvidia installer and scrubbed all but bare minimum gfx driver ONLY (no physX), booted to safe mode, DDU, reboot in to regular mode and installed the scrubbed nvidia driver (388.71)
-Nvidia services set to disabled
-sound crap from nvidia/hdmi disabled in device man
-I left a lot of devices on default drivers and for NIC I even had to find an older driver before Intel introduced higher DPC latency... spent lots of time comparing drivers for best DPC latency
-below screenshot will show there are very little processes running and the idle core utilization is quite chill. I can't figure this out brahs and already spent 5+ hours trying to address this... should I just reimage to Windows 7 and call it a day? On the same hardware config I had consistent single digit DPC latency at idle with Windows 7
HH6TTNAt.png

LatencyMon stats: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your system appears to be suitable for handling real-time audio and other tasks without dropouts.
LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for 0:23:06 (h:mm:ss) on all processors.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SYSTEM INFORMATION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Computer name: UDOVOODOO
OS version: Windows 8.1 , 6.3, build: 9600 (x64)
Hardware: ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC., RAMPAGE IV EXTREME
CPU: GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3930K CPU @ 3.20GHz
Logical processors: 6
Processor groups: 1
RAM: 16331 MB total


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU SPEED
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reported CPU speed: 320 MHz
Measured CPU speed: 1 MHz (approx.)

Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.

WARNING: the CPU speed that was measured is only a fraction of the CPU speed reported. Your CPUs may be throttled back due to variable speed settings and thermal issues. It is suggested that you run a utility which reports your actual CPU frequency and temperature.



_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.

Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 181.587325
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 5.861472

Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 179.073039
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 2.729501


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED ISRs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.

Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 144.91750
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: dxgkrnl.sys - DirectX Graphics Kernel, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.077709
Driver with highest ISR total time: dxgkrnl.sys - DirectX Graphics Kernel, Microsoft Corporation

Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.083217

ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 367483
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 500-999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED DPCs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.

Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 367.378125
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: nvlddmkm.sys - NVIDIA Windows Kernel Mode Driver, Version 388.71 , NVIDIA Corporation

Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.105989
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: rspLLL64.sys - Resplendence Latency Monitoring and Auxiliary Kernel Library, Resplendence Software Projects Sp.

Total time spent in DPCs (%) 0.194390

DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 5135070
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 500-999 µs): 7
DPC count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.

NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.

Process with highest pagefault count: chrome.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults 1490
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 411
Highest hard pagefault resolution time (µs): 8393.198750
Total time spent in hard pagefaults (%): 0.003488
Number of processes hit: 15


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
PER CPU DATA
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 0 Interrupt cycle time (s): 13.943069
CPU 0 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 0 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 0 ISR count: 0
CPU 0 DPC highest execution time (µs): 73.630
CPU 0 DPC total execution time (s): 8.974667
CPU 0 DPC count: 3499021
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 1 Interrupt cycle time (s): 4.178862
CPU 1 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 1 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 1 ISR count: 0
CPU 1 DPC highest execution time (µs): 111.159375
CPU 1 DPC total execution time (s): 0.082670
CPU 1 DPC count: 104287
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 2 Interrupt cycle time (s): 5.276853
CPU 2 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 2 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 2 ISR count: 0
CPU 2 DPC highest execution time (µs): 124.185625
CPU 2 DPC total execution time (s): 0.081491
CPU 2 DPC count: 141376
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 3 Interrupt cycle time (s): 3.547234
CPU 3 ISR highest execution time (µs): 9.716875
CPU 3 ISR total execution time (s): 0.005928
CPU 3 ISR count: 1352
CPU 3 DPC highest execution time (µs): 60.265625
CPU 3 DPC total execution time (s): 0.067519
CPU 3 DPC count: 119993
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 4 Interrupt cycle time (s): 7.176885
CPU 4 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 4 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 4 ISR count: 0
CPU 4 DPC highest execution time (µs): 66.668750
CPU 4 DPC total execution time (s): 0.104822
CPU 4 DPC count: 161035
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 5 Interrupt cycle time (s): 20.056960
CPU 5 ISR highest execution time (µs): 144.91750
CPU 5 ISR total execution time (s): 6.916077
CPU 5 ISR count: 366131
CPU 5 DPC highest execution time (µs): 367.378125
CPU 5 DPC total execution time (s): 6.858162
CPU 5 DPC count: 1109365
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LatencyMon driver stats:
ySYbMqHt.png
Edited by Scorpion667 - 12/24/17 at 11:27am
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3930k 4.7 1.384v RIVE BIOS 2105 1080TI FTW3 2050/6003 16GB Samsung 2133Mhz CL10 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB H110 Win 10 Pro 64bit XL2420T 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
K70 Reds EVGA 1300G2 Arc Midi R2 Zowie FK2, many opticals 
Mouse PadAudioOther
SS QCK+ Xonar Essence STX Intel EXPI9301CT NIC 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3930k 4.7 1.384v RIVE BIOS 2105 1080TI FTW3 2050/6003 16GB Samsung 2133Mhz CL10 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 850 Evo 1TB H110 Win 10 Pro 64bit XL2420T 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
K70 Reds EVGA 1300G2 Arc Midi R2 Zowie FK2, many opticals 
Mouse PadAudioOther
SS QCK+ Xonar Essence STX Intel EXPI9301CT NIC 
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post #3550 of 3611
I thought of you people when I read this.

I think a more fair comparison would be adding some Pentium3/4 era systems as well, both with old (98, XP) and modern OS's.

https://danluu.com/input-lag/
Broken Dreams
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-4590 Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H ASUS R9 270X 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3-1866 
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240GB Intel 530 SSD CM Hyper 212 Windows 7 Ultimate Seasonic M12II-620 
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Corsair 750D Logitech G400 
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i7-4870HQ Intel HM87 AMD R9 M370X 16GB DDR3 
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512GB Apple/Samsung SSD Windows 10 Enterprise OS X 15 inch Retina display 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
BenQ XL2720Z Das Keyboard (cherry mx blue) Magsafe 2 charger Mionix Naos 7000 
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Broken Dreams
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macbook pro 2015
(16 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-4590 Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H ASUS R9 270X 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3-1866 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
240GB Intel 530 SSD CM Hyper 212 Windows 7 Ultimate Seasonic M12II-620 
CaseMouse
Corsair 750D Logitech G400 
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i7-4870HQ Intel HM87 AMD R9 M370X 16GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSOSMonitor
512GB Apple/Samsung SSD Windows 10 Enterprise OS X 15 inch Retina display 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
BenQ XL2720Z Das Keyboard (cherry mx blue) Magsafe 2 charger Mionix Naos 7000 
Mouse PadAudioAudioOther
SteelSeries QCK (standard size) Sennheiser HD 558 Fiio E10K Onkyo TX-8020 
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