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Mini-ITX. All anyone needs. Convince me otherwise. - Page 12

post #111 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMonarque View Post

For a full-fledged $1000 build which includes those things, you can't get better gaming performance with a SFF system vs. a non-SFF system, and if you think you can, feel free to prove that statement wrong with an example of a full SFF system build.

You're probably right that you can't get better gaming performance but you can get the exact same gaming performance since motherboards really don't have any impact on FPS.

No need to make an example build since we are comparing case and mobo and that will not affect gaming performance.
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post #112 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHighScore View Post

You're probably right that you can't get better gaming performance but you can get the exact same gaming performance since motherboards really don't have any impact on FPS.

No need to make an example build since we are comparing case and mobo and that will not affect gaming performance.

Actually, the purpose of an example build was to demonstrate to you that ITX motherboards only allow for FM2 and Intel processors at most.

It's more than just case and mobo. That's too narrow. It's also CPU, heatsink clearance, in some cases PSU clearance, and then the effects of all of those on how much money you have to spend on a GPU, which WILL affect gaming performance.

But specifically for CPUs, for AMD you can get much better performance on AM3+ than on FM2 for the same price, and for Intel you can divert the higher cost of Intel CPUs to an AM3+ CPU and a better GPU.

Both of those things at the end of the day give you better gaming performance, and both of those things are on AM3+, which is not a socket available in mini ITX form. Because of that, no current mini ITX build will ever be the best value option for those $1000-budget majority of gamers that OP is talking about.
Edited by LeMonarque - 11/3/13 at 8:54pm
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post #113 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHighScore View Post

I haven't read every single post of the OP's but I agree with him. HUGE majority of people really do only need mITX. Very very few need larger.

Since when do people only buy the things that they need? Just because it is possible to build a system that will fit into a shoebox, does that mean that everyone should have a compute that size? I like having a large case. I prefer the flexibility that a large case gives. The numerous advantages to having a larger MB/case have been listed by multiple members in this thread. There is one advantage to MITX, the size of the case.
post #114 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMonarque View Post

Actually, the purpose of an example build was to demonstrate to you that ITX motherboards only allow for FM2 and Intel processors at most.

It's more than just case and mobo. That's too narrow. It's also CPU, heatsink clearance, in some cases PSU clearance, and then the effects of all of those on how much money you have to spend on a GPU, which WILL affect gaming performance.

But specifically for CPUs, for AMD you can get much better performance on AM3+ than on FM2 for the same price, and for Intel you can divert the higher cost of Intel CPUs to an AM3+ CPU and a better GPU.

Both of those things at the end of the day give you better gaming performance, and both of those things are on AM3+, which is not a socket available in mini ITX form. Because of that, no current mini ITX build will ever be the best value option for those $1000-budget majority of gamers that OP is talking about.

The FM2 gets a lot of crap here but it is undeserved. And APU with a single high end GPU delivers a gaming experience at 1080 that is IDENTICAL to Intel i5 and even i7 and I have shown that more than once here. Your statement above should read,
Quote:
Both of those things at the end of the day give you better gaming benchmarks

I have played BF4, Crysis 3, Skyrim and a number of other games on an APU based system, A10 6800K with a 7950 and had sitting next to it a 4770K with a 7970, you cvould not tell the difference in game play. Other people are seeing this as well, Anandtech showed that with a few specific games the APU was the best bang for the buck for single card gaming as high as 1440.

Your arguments hear read like someone that "read" about this stuff but not experienced it. I was skeptical the first time I build an ITX rig but no longer.

I will agree with you that it is a SHAME that AMD's partners have ignored the AM3+ ecosystem with ITX and good mATX boards but the truth is ITX building is limited to a single GPU by it's design and for a gamer in all but a few specific exceptions, the APU gets the job done and does it for less money.

Also an APU build is an awesome first gamer build. With a low budget you can built and APU based system, and get some fair gaming out of the onboard at 720 resolutions. Down the road as your desire to game grows and you same your money you can add a nice graphics cards and have a first rate gaming rig.

Cannot do that with Intel or the AM3+ series because the onboard graphics these can have (AM3+ via chipset) sucks compared to the APU.
post #115 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post


I have played BF4, Crysis 3, Skyrim and a number of other games on an APU based system, A10 6800K with a 7950 and had sitting next to it a 4770K with a 7970, you cvould not tell the difference in game play. Other people are seeing this as well, Anandtech showed that with a few specific games the APU was the best bang for the buck for single card gaming as high as 1440.

Fair enough. I can't argue with your first-hand experiences.

But I will ask you two things: go check the price of an A10-6800K. Then check the price of an FX-6300.

You may be correct in terms of performance, but that extra cost is going to have to come from somewhere, and any budget builder be damned if that means they have to sacrifice an SSD, peripherals, or a weaker GPU just to get that 6800K. That's my point.

You can change your case, PSU, etc to fit in the extra cost, but at the end of the day you will always be able to take your end result after scrounging for an A10, swap the socket to AM3+, and suddenly have extra cash to spend on another, more important aspect of your build. Whether that is GPU, storage, or peripherals, there will always be a component that has more effect on performance and user experience than that mini ITX board and the cost sacrifices made for that mini ITX configuration in total.

It's just basic math. Numbers never lie. Something costs less, you can always switch to it and get more cash to spend, there's zero argument against that. And when that extra cash can be put to better use, there is a hell of an argument for getting that extra cash instead of SFF.

I agree with you on your point about FM2 being a good launching pad for somebody's first build. It's a great platform for people who want to do that. But again, the argument that OP is driving home assumes that the majority of builders who build gaming-only systems (the low-to-mid range $1000-$1500 builders) should only buy mini ITX, and APU-only first-timers are not in that majority.
Edited by LeMonarque - 11/4/13 at 6:33am
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post #116 of 119
I am not going to dispute there is a price difference. An A10 built with a Gigabyte A88 FM2+ board will cost more than an FX 6500 with a 970 board, price difference is about $20. However the motherboard comparision might be a bit unfair, the FM2+ board is compatible with the next generation of chips, Kaveri, something we do not know the future of on the 970, this to many is alone worth a $20 price difference.

Another point is that with using the A10 6800K we are using the top of the APU line and the 6500 is the middle of the FX line. We drop the A10 to an A8 6600K which is arguably in the same placement tier as the 6500 and suddenly the the APU build is $10 cheaper instead of $20 more expensive and you have only lost 200MHz at stock speed making the reduction hard to see outside of benchmarks.

In fact you have another option as well, the AMD 760K which is basically an APU without onboard graphics. The performance is also right at that of a 6800K and it comes in $30 less than the 6500.

Now as I stated in another post I do agree that building an ITX or any SFF rig is a CHOICE. However the OP, while I think over the top in his argument, is not wrong. If you are building a system to game at 1080 or even 1440 if going a single card then there is no real advantage in gaming experience for 95% of users with going with a build bigger than SFF.

As for the discussion of extra cost coming from somewhere, that it NOT an issue limited to ITX building. Every build is a sacrifice against the wallet when it comes to making the PC you want. This same argument is faced everyday, do I need a 7970 for my 1080 gaming or will the 7950 be enough and I can use the extra for a bigger SSD? Do I buy the bigger cooling solution for an extra few hundred MHz in my overclock or save the money and use the chip stock and that money can be used to make some other part better.

ITX is not the only build type that requires a sacrifice from time to time to make a budget fit.
post #117 of 119
Hey guys,

ITX is all you need. Got myself a full closed water loop setup, asus maximus board, 4770k delidded and now a 780gtx.

The factory psu in the SG08 case is more than enough to power all this with 2 ssds and a blu ray slim drive.

ALL YOU NEED wink.gif.

*

post #118 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

I am not going to dispute there is a price difference. An A10 built with a Gigabyte A88 FM2+ board will cost more than an FX 6500 with a 970 board, price difference is about $20. However the motherboard comparision might be a bit unfair, the FM2+ board is compatible with the next generation of chips, Kaveri, something we do not know the future of on the 970, this to many is alone worth a $20 price difference.

Another point is that with using the A10 6800K we are using the top of the APU line and the 6500 is the middle of the FX line. We drop the A10 to an A8 6600K which is arguably in the same placement tier as the 6500 and suddenly the the APU build is $10 cheaper instead of $20 more expensive and you have only lost 200MHz at stock speed making the reduction hard to see outside of benchmarks.

In fact you have another option as well, the AMD 760K which is basically an APU without onboard graphics. The performance is also right at that of a 6800K and it comes in $30 less than the 6500.

Now as I stated in another post I do agree that building an ITX or any SFF rig is a CHOICE. However the OP, while I think over the top in his argument, is not wrong. If you are building a system to game at 1080 or even 1440 if going a single card then there is no real advantage in gaming experience for 95% of users with going with a build bigger than SFF.

As for the discussion of extra cost coming from somewhere, that it NOT an issue limited to ITX building. Every build is a sacrifice against the wallet when it comes to making the PC you want. This same argument is faced everyday, do I need a 7970 for my 1080 gaming or will the 7950 be enough and I can use the extra for a bigger SSD? Do I buy the bigger cooling solution for an extra few hundred MHz in my overclock or save the money and use the chip stock and that money can be used to make some other part better.

ITX is not the only build type that requires a sacrifice from time to time to make a budget fit.

AMD is irrelevant when it comes to mITX. You're using a bad comparison. All of the available FM2+ motherboards are the current top chipset, while 970 is cheap and dated. AM3+ is also a dead socket and has no mITX boards available. APUs only have two modules for up to four cores and no L3 cache, while the FX series has four modules for up to eight cores and no integrated graphics processor. You pay extra for the 6800k's iGPU when you compare it to the otherwise (nearly) identical FX-4300. Also, Intel has none of their Xeon-based Extreme series available due to the lack of a socket supporting them, something that makes it a poor choice for really high-end builds.

In addition, saying that spending more on a graphics card is like spending more on the form-factor is just wrong. When you spend $100 for a 7970GHz over a 7950, you're spending that on a better GPU. When you spend more money on an equivalent SFF chipset for your motherboard, you gain nothing whatsoever. The problem with mITX isn't budget. Obviously I can get a better GPU if I sacrifice SSD space, but I could also make money appear out of nowhere by sacrificing desk space for the same end result. If I have $1000 for a rig, I can get more out of a larger form-factor both in money and options.
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post #119 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

what about getting a Cooler Master HAF Stacker 935?


My case!! And im going to be building a m itx nad system using 2 of the 915r chassis added to the bottom. Mitx has its uses. Especially when paired with a SAS controller for lots of hdd space.
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