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Extreme TEC chiller experiment with Antec

post #1 of 89
Thread Starter 
Hello, and welcome to this experiment to get as cool temps in my rig to get the highest overclocks as possible biggrin.gif

First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Antec for making this TEC chiller experiment possible thumb.gif

0kza.png

And Monsoon for some fittings:


As said, the point of this TEC experiment is to cool down the water temperature in my rig to get some nice overclocks. The rig is not final yet, but it's coming along really nice and you can se more here; http://www.overclock.net/t/1360289/build-log-white-sg09-with-power-and-watercooling
But here a sneak peak;


But back to the chiller;
As the title say this is a TEC chiller. In short a TEC/Peltier can transport heat from one side to the other, and by that make one of the side cold, but the other warm. To know more look here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
The TEC does this just by using electricity which is why a TEC is a genius invention.
However TEC's are not that efficient just yet, which is why they are not that common use in things like a fridge (but they will perhaps become in a few years).

But their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for this experiment since we just bump up the numbers of TECs and power for them should be no problem (except if the electric system in my apartment can't handle that amount of Watt's).

So the idea (for a TEC chiller in general) is to block the TECs in between two water blocks. The "cold-side" water block will be incorporated in the rigs loop (no radiator in this loop when the chiller is in work) so that the water will get cooled down and the hardware should get some low temperatures and then high overclocks thumb.gif

The "hot-side" of the "TEC sandwich" should of course be cooled (or it will most likely melt). But the lower the temperature of the "hot-side" the lower the temperature of the "cold-side" we can get. And since the experiment is to get as low temperature as possible, the cooling for the hot-side is also in the extreme category (more on this later biggrin.gif)

TEC's
Right now it looks to be these TECs;
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/12711-5M31-24CZ_spec_sht.pdf
How many is still a bit uncertain, but it will be at least 12 of them (perhaps 16).
But if you have any other ideas for some better TECs, please speak up.
They will be run with 12V, so have this in mind wink.gif

Water blocks
The water blocks for the "TEC sandwich's" will be custom made in copper and plexi top.
The internal design for the water block is not still decided, but so far I'm looking toward something like this; Water block design from Skyrip (Click to show)
But perhaps with smaller and more of the squares to create some turbulence and high surface area that should make the blocks efficient to transfer heat to the water thumb.gif
But other designs are more then welcome as well smile.gif

So there you have my idea for an extreme TEC chiller.
I don't know if I will make subzero temps when bench with just CPU or one GPU or the whole system, but the hardware will be isolated to cope with the possible condensation ;-)
Edited by Fruergaard - 1/9/14 at 12:49pm
post #2 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

Hello, and welcome to this experiment to get as cool temps in my rig to get the highest overclocks as possible biggrin.gif

First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Antec for making this TEC chiller experiment possible thumb.gif



As said, the point of this TEC experiment is to cool down the water temperature in my rig to get some nice overclocks. The rig is not final yet, but it's coming along really nice and you can se more here; http://www.overclock.net/t/1360289/build-log-white-sg09-with-power-and-watercooling
But here a sneak peak;


But back to the chiller;
As the title say this is a TEC chiller. In short a TEC/Peltier can transport heat from one side to the other, and by that make one of the side cold, but the other warm. To know more look here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
The TEC does this just by using electricity which is why a TEC is a genius invention.
However TEC's are not that efficient just yet, which is why they are not that common use in things like a fridge (but they will perhaps become in a few years).

But their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for this experiment since we just bump up the numbers of TECs and power for them should be no problem (except if the electric system in my apartment can't handle that amount of Watt's).

So the idea (for a TEC chiller in general) is to block the TECs in between two water blocks. The "cold-side" water block will be incorporated in the rigs loop (no radiator in this loop when the chiller is in work) so that the water will get cooled down and the hardware should get some low temperatures and then high overclocks thumb.gif

The "hot-side" of the "TEC sandwich" should of course be cooled (or it will most likely melt). But the lower the temperature of the "hot-side" the lower the temperature of the "cold-side" we can get. And since the experiment is to get as low temperature as possible, the cooling for the hot-side is also in the extreme category (more on this later biggrin.gif)

TEC's
Right now it looks to be these TECs;
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/12711-5M31-24CZ_spec_sht.pdf
How many is still a bit uncertain, but it will be at least 12 of them (perhaps 16).
But if you have any other ideas for some better TECs, please speak up.
They will be run with 12V, so have this in mind wink.gif

Water blocks
The water blocks for the "TEC sandwich's" will be custom made in copper and plexi top.
The internal design for the water block is not still decided, but so far I'm looking toward something like this; Water block design from Skyrip (Click to show)
But perhaps with smaller and more of the squares to create some turbulence and high surface area that should make the blocks efficient to transfer heat to the water thumb.gif
But other designs are more then welcome as well smile.gif

So there you have my idea for an extreme TEC chiller.
I don't know if I will make subzero temps when bench with just CPU or one GPU or the whole system, but the hardware will be isolated to cope with the possible condensation ;-)

So your going phase change? Did you make it yourself or but it pre made?
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post #3 of 89
Hey Fruergaard, you're inexperience is showing... I don't mean to be rude, but I want to give you a more realistic idea of what your plan will require.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

The TEC does this just by using electricity which is why a TEC is a genius invention.
However TEC's are not that efficient just yet, which is why they are not that common use in things like a fridge (but they will perhaps become in a few years).

Fridges are far from efficient when put side by side to a TEC, atleast when it comes to a constant heat load. For one, a refrigerator's compressor will simply burn up if you were to put a 200W load on it for hours or days on end. Fridges were designed to cool without a constant heat source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

But their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for this experiment since we just bump up the numbers of TECs and power for them should be no problem (except if the electric system in my apartment can't handle that amount of Watt's).

It's not simply about how many TECs you use to increase efficiency. If your voltage remains the same from one amount of TECs to the next, you haven't changed their efficiency at all, just the effectiveness; and if you were going for effectiveness, you've just created a ton more heat you need to get rid of by adding more TECs. To increase efficiency, you need to reduce the voltage. Doing this in conjunction with increasing the TEC count will increase effectiveness without increasing heat load from the TECs (assuming you do it in the proper proportions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

TEC's
Right now it looks to be these TECs;
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/12711-5M31-24CZ_spec_sht.pdf
How many is still a bit uncertain, but it will be at least 12 of them (perhaps 16).
But if you have any other ideas for some better TECs, please speak up.
They will be run with 12V, so have this in mind wink.gif

You do realize that if you ran those TECs (all 12 of them) at 12V, you would need to use and remove 2664W of heat just generated by the TECs alone. If this is the intent; Godspeed! There is no single PSU for a computer that can pull that much power at 12V. At 16 TECs, the story doesn't get any better with 12V. You will want to use some where around 6V per TEC. That would be about 576W generated from the TECs. My best guess is you'ed move about 480W with a temperature difference of 30°C from the hot side to cold side.

As for the water blocks, that isn't an area I ventured yet. With condensation, I'm working on a controller that will prevent it by staying above dew point.
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post #4 of 89
Thread Starter 
Hey Krow, no hard feelings here, but;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post

Fridges are far from efficient when put side by side to a TEC, atleast when it comes to a constant heat load. For one, a refrigerator's compressor will simply burn up if you were to put a 200W load on it for hours or days on end. Fridges were designed to cool without a constant heat source.

Like I said, compressor is still the best solution to a refrigerator, but may not be for long due to the research done to improve the TEC's to replace the compressor (would take up less space, no noise (maybe a fan) and perhaps less power required).
I have been at the research group at Aarhus University that is trying to improve the TECs efficiency but varying the composition of metals inside (not just for the use in refrigerators but many application for TECs).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post

It's not simply about how many TECs you use to increase efficiency. If your voltage remains the same from one amount of TECs to the next, you haven't changed their efficiency at all, just the effectiveness; and if you were going for effectiveness, you've just created a ton more heat you need to get rid of by adding more TECs. To increase efficiency, you need to reduce the voltage. Doing this in conjunction with increasing the TEC count will increase effectiveness without increasing heat load from the TECs (assuming you do it in the proper proportions).

I didn't mean that I could or would increase the efficiency just by adding more TECs (unless you would run two in serial to get them down to 6V each).
What I meant was that their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for me, since I just add more, in which more heat will be transfer (and added, but I got that covered). thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post

You do realize that if you ran those TECs (all 12 of them) at 12V, you would need to use and remove 2664W of heat just generated by the TECs alone. If this is the intent; Godspeed! There is no single PSU for a computer that can pull that much power at 12V. At 16 TECs, the story doesn't get any better with 12V. You will want to use some where around 6V per TEC. That would be about 576W generated from the TECs. My best guess is you'ed move about 480W with a temperature difference of 30°C from the hot side to cold side.

Yes that is the intent.
I see now that I didn't say that this chiller, is just for benchmarking biggrin.gif
Which is why I don't care if the TEC's would be more efficient at 6V, since I what the most performance (lowest temperature), and doesn't care about power consumption (since it's just for benching, no way I will have a 3000w chiller working when I just gaming or surfing rolleyes.gif).

But I'm well aware of how much power these TEC's will generate. And I believe I got enough cooling for them (around 3500W from 16 TECs and + 800W from the rigs hardware = 4300W).
And the power for the TEC's is covered, so don't worry about that wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post

As for the water blocks, that isn't an area I ventured yet. With condensation, I'm working on a controller that will prevent it by staying above dew point.

Since it's just for benching, the goal is to reach as low temperatures as possible.
And the benched hardware will get protected from the possible condensation thumb.gif
If this chiller was for some 24/7 use, I would too make some form of controller so that condensation wouldn't happen.

The only thing is, if the water blocks will be efficient enough to transfer so much heat (4000w) back and forth between the TEC's and the water in the two loops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptDanko View Post

So your going phase change? Did you make it yourself or but it pre made?
No?, I will be using TECs to chill the water thumb.gif
post #5 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

Hey Krow, no hard feelings here, but;
Like I said, compressor is still the best solution to a refrigerator, but may not be for long due to the research done to improve the TEC's to replace the compressor (would take up less space, no noise (maybe a fan) and perhaps less power required).
I have been at the research group at Aarhus University that is trying to improve the TECs efficiency but varying the composition of metals inside (not just for the use in refrigerators but many application for TECs).
I didn't mean that I could or would increase the efficiency just by adding more TECs (unless you would run two in serial to get them down to 6V each).
What I meant was that their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for me, since I just add more, in which more heat will be transfer (and added, but I got that covered). thumb.gif
Yes that is the intent.
I see now that I didn't say that this chiller, is just for benchmarking biggrin.gif
Which is why I don't care if the TEC's would be more efficient at 6V, since I what the most performance (lowest temperature), and doesn't care about power consumption (since it's just for benching, no way I will have a 3000w chiller working when I just gaming or surfing rolleyes.gif).

But I'm well aware of how much power these TEC's will generate. And I believe I got enough cooling for them (around 3500W from 16 TECs and + 800W from the rigs hardware = 4300W).
And the power for the TEC's is covered, so don't worry about that wink.gif
Since it's just for benching, the goal is to reach as low temperatures as possible.
And the benched hardware will get protected from the possible condensation thumb.gif
If this chiller was for some 24/7 use, I would too make some form of controller so that condensation wouldn't happen.

The only thing is, if the water blocks will be efficient enough to transfer so much heat (4000w) back and forth between the TEC's and the water in the two loops.
No?, I will be using TECs to chill the water thumb.gif

I thought the TEC or peltier had to be sandwhiched between CPU and whatever cooling your using. How are you gonna chill the water itself with a TEC?
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post #6 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptDanko View Post

I thought the TEC or peltier had to be sandwhiched between CPU and whatever cooling your using. How are you gonna chill the water itself with a TEC?

That is only with a direct die setup, like what I am running.

A chiller uses the TEC's to chill the water in a watercooling loop.
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post #7 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

That is only with a direct die setup, like what I am running.

A chiller uses the TEC's to chill the water in a watercooling loop.

So basically its like the chiller they use at bars to make the draft beer cold as it leaves the keg to the faucet?
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post #8 of 89
Foxrena is getting ready to test some 700Qmax peltiers from Thermonamic, and if they test well we're going to set up a group buy. That may interest you as opposed to the 226.0qmax from CTE.
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post #9 of 89
So, you don't want to use phase change because compressors are noisy? Put them in a sound box.

Because they aren't suited for continuous use? Use a bigger compressor and a reservoir.
post #10 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by iZMXi View Post

So, you don't want to use phase change because compressors are noisy? Put them in a sound box.

Because they aren't suited for continuous use? Use a bigger compressor and a reservoir.

Phase change is large, noisy, expensive, can't be thermally controlled, and take college training to know how to construct.

TECs are compact, can be thermally controlled, easy to understand, and take little training to know how to use.



They both have their advantages and disadvantages, there is no inherently superior device.

Given that he is constructing it himself he may not have the know how to construct, insulate, plum, and properly design a phase change unit.
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