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post #31 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHommander View Post

True that, but you guys still don't understand why I had my loop set up the way I did... Q6600 @ 5gHz = ton of heat. Water is pumped into water block on CPU... It then comes out warm... So I take that water and shove it through a 240mmx80mm radiator to cool it down to ambient... Then when the water comes out nearly room temperature it is pumped into another water block mounted to the cold side of the peltier... It then comes out below ambient... Then that water is pumped into the CPU water block... That is how my loop is set up. Get it now?

They all understand what you are trying to do, the problem is that radiators will not cool anything without a difference in temperature. At a 10celcius Δtemperature, (A 10celcius temperature difference between air and coolant) with 1500RPM fans a 3.120 Radiator will move around 230 watts of heat from a loop. Half the ΔT and you half the heat removed, now you're at 115watts of heat removed, and you're still 5celcius above ambient. Half that again, and you're about 60 watts of heat removed, and you're only at 2.5celcius above ambient. Now, in order for your experiment to work, you'd need to half that again. One 360 radiator will move 30 watts of heat if you use 1500rpm fans and your loop is 1.2celcius above ambient. The Q6600 without an overclock has a thermal power design of 130watts. Now a 5GHz overclock is twice its normal frequency, so let's assume twice the thermal power design which seems fair. You now have to remove 260watts of heat before the peltiers. You would need at least 8 360 radiators with 1500RPM fans.

Even then peltiers will only lower the coolant temp by a couple degrees. A 200 watt heatload will increase the temperature of the coolants passing over it by one degree, assuming the loop is going 1GPM.

So now you have a loop returning to the radiator with 1celcius below ambient. You're loop will warm up by 1 celcius.

Your idea simply won't work.

It would be more effective if you just dropped the peltiers all together, or used a dual loop with the peltiers in their own loop absent of radiators.

There is no happy medium in mixing the two designs.
Edited by ZytheEKS - 12/10/13 at 8:58pm
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post #32 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

They all understand what you are trying to do, the problem is that radiators will not cool anything without a difference in temperature. At a 10celcius Δtemperature, (A 10celcius temperature between air and coolant) with 1500RPM fans a 3.120 Radiator will move around 230 watts of heat from a loop. Half the ΔT and you half the heat removed, now you're at 115watts of heat removed, and you're still 5celcius above ambient. Half that again, and you're about 60 watts of heat removed, and you're only at 2.5celcius above ambient. Now, in order for your experiment to work, you'd need to half that again. One 360 radiator will move 30 watts of heat if you use 1500rpm fans and your loop is 1.2celcius above ambient. The Q6600 without an overclock has a thermal power design of 130watts. Now a 5GHz overclock is twice its normal frequency, so let's assume twice the thermal power design which seems fair. You now have to remove 260watts of heat before the peltiers. You would need at least 8 360 radiators with 1500RPM fans.

Even then peltiers will only lower the coolant temp by a couple degrees. A 200 watt heatload will increase the temperature of the coolants passing over it by one degree, assuming the loop is going 1GPM.

So now you have a loop returning to the radiator with 1celcius below ambient. You're loop will warm up by 1 celcius.

Your idea simply won't work.

Ohhhhkkk I understand now, so you're saying that when the water goes through my cpu block it'll only increase maybe 1 or 2 C right? that explains why its not working. So would I have better luck doing what Fruergaard is trying to do by just taking water strait from CPU and cooling it with peltier instead of running it through radiators?

+rep for you that was a really good explination btw
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post #33 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHommander View Post

Ohhhhkkk I understand now, so you're saying that when the water goes through my cpu block it'll only increase maybe 1 or 2 C right? that explains why its not working. So would I have better luck doing what Fruergaard is trying to do by just taking water strait from CPU and cooling it with peltier instead of running it through radiators?

+rep for you that was a really good explination btw

Yup.

You might consider an evaporative cooler. They aren't pretty, but they will easily bring temps to ambient. Keep in mind an evap cooler does work by evaporation of water, so you'd need to keep refilling it. For this reason it's advisable to use an evap cooler in a dual loop, one with the evap, and one in a closed loop using heat exchangers.

Something like this: http://www.overclock.net/t/511330/horizontal-volenti-cooler-56k-warning

Note: That thread is 3 years old, please don't necro it. tongue.gif Just there for information reference.
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post #34 of 89
Ahh yes... I looked into that briefly and considered it a while back but it is simply too big... My rig is often taken to Lan parties and stuff like that so I want a computer that houses everything inside the case, I have a supertower so there is room to work with but I have yet to figure out a nice small cooling contraption that'll give me great temps. And so far, peltier plates are the only thing I've found that fits this description frown.gif I'll probably keep messing around with them, I have too many just sitting around here... I managed to get my core 2 duo rig to almost 0C with direct contact on the CPU with a 200W peltier... I might look into that but I don't want any of my parts getting damaged from condensation; I dont fully trust kneeded eraser and foam yet tongue.gif
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post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHommander View Post

Ahh yes... I looked into that briefly and considered it a while back but it is simply too big... My rig is often taken to Lan parties and stuff like that so I want a computer that houses everything inside the case, I have a supertower so there is room to work with but I have yet to figure out a nice small cooling contraption that'll give me great temps. And so far, peltier plates are the only thing I've found that fits this description frown.gif I'll probably keep messing around with them, I have too many just sitting around here... I managed to get my core 2 duo rig to almost 0C with direct contact on the CPU with a 200W peltier... I might look into that but I don't want any of my parts getting damaged from condensation; I dont fully trust kneeded eraser and foam yet tongue.gif

Then get a controller. Krow is currently taking preorders for a controller that holds the cold plates temp at a user set amount above dewpoint. It /can't/ form condensation no matter how powerful of a TEC you use.


It might be worth throwing him a PM as an inquiry
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post #36 of 89
Ohhh ok, I might just have to get one! Thanks for all of your help Zythe!
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post #37 of 89
Thread Starter 
Hi all

Now with Christmas over and exams, I'm once again back to hopefully finish this build and the TEC cooler.
Also Happy New Year smile.gif

This update isn't a big one, but I am in need of your help smile.gif
I'm not at big water flow engineer, so if you got any ideas for at better water block for the TECs, please let me know thumb.gif

Currently I got this designed;



This will be in copper and it is 6mm high (with the squares 4mm(height)x2mmx2mm) and will get a acrylic top (where the inlet and oult will be and at each end).
Holes in the sides are for screws and springs to press the two blocks around the TEC tight together :-)

There will then be one at each side of the TECs.

The question is if this block is good enough for the amount of heat they need to take up and give to the water (4 or 5 TECs + some of the hardware load = approx. 1000w)?

Also Skyrip have suggested that I could use direct cooling of the TEC's instead (where the water runs directly over the TECs).
Something like that he have done here;
http://forum.highflow.nl/f34/super-cool-14427/index2.html

It would make it a lot cheaper and easier to make.
But I'm in doubt as to how well it would work, due to there is limited restriction (just a plain surface).

So if you got any suggesting for the water blocks please let me know thumb.gif
post #38 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

Phase change is large, noisy, expensive, can't be thermally controlled, and take college training to know how to construct.

TECs are compact, can be thermally controlled, easy to understand, and take little training to know how to use.



They both have their advantages and disadvantages, there is no inherently superior device.

Given that he is constructing it himself he may not have the know how to construct, insulate, plum, and properly design a phase change unit.

Apparently you missed out on the inverter controlled, and variable speed 0-5V VC control models. both are just as easy to send a signal to as a TEC controller. As for college training to construct? lol nope. all you need is the right tools, just like water cooling. no leaks is important.

here's a 12VDC powered 5kBTU liquid chiller:
http://www.masterflux.com/products/completesystems/?pid=93

or if you want to DIY:
http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

They all understand what you are trying to do, the problem is that radiators will not cool anything without a difference in temperature. At a 10celcius Δtemperature, (A 10celcius temperature difference between air and coolant) with 1500RPM fans a 3.120 Radiator will move around 230 watts of heat from a loop. Half the ΔT and you half the heat removed, now you're at 115watts of heat removed, and you're still 5celcius above ambient. Half that again, and you're about 60 watts of heat removed, and you're only at 2.5celcius above ambient. Now, in order for your experiment to work, you'd need to half that again. One 360 radiator will move 30 watts of heat if you use 1500rpm fans and your loop is 1.2celcius above ambient. The Q6600 without an overclock has a thermal power design of 130watts. Now a 5GHz overclock is twice its normal frequency, so let's assume twice the thermal power design which seems fair. You now have to remove 260watts of heat before the peltiers. You would need at least 8 360 radiators with 1500RPM fans.
you're wrong on both counts. the relationship between delta T and heat transferred is non-linear, and a Q6600 has a TDP of 105W.

if you double a chip's clockspeed, you will double the heat generated. but you can't do that without upping the voltage, and increasing the voltage again results in a non-linear increase in heat output.
 
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post #39 of 89
You should cool the 12 TECs with 24 more TECs with waterblocks on them attached to a bank of 12 480mm radiators.
post #40 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruergaard View Post

Hi all

Now with Christmas over and exams, I'm once again back to hopefully finish this build and the TEC cooler.
Also Happy New Year smile.gif

This update isn't a big one, but I am in need of your help smile.gif
I'm not at big water flow engineer, so if you got any ideas for at better water block for the TECs, please let me know thumb.gif

Currently I got this designed;



This will be in copper and it is 6mm high (with the squares 4mm(height)x2mmx2mm) and will get a acrylic top (where the inlet and oult will be and at each end).
Holes in the sides are for screws and springs to press the two blocks around the TEC tight together :-)

There will then be one at each side of the TECs.

The question is if this block is good enough for the amount of heat they need to take up and give to the water (4 or 5 TECs + some of the hardware load = approx. 1000w)?

Also Skyrip have suggested that I could use direct cooling of the TEC's instead (where the water runs directly over the TECs).
Something like that he have done here;
http://forum.highflow.nl/f34/super-cool-14427/index2.html

It would make it a lot cheaper and easier to make.
But I'm in doubt as to how well it would work, due to there is limited restriction (just a plain surface).

So if you got any suggesting for the water blocks please let me know thumb.gif

The thermal density is not high in your case. It can cool 1000W with ease.
Pin design is much more restrictive than channels and takes much more effort to machine. I would use simple channels. Performance will be better too.
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