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post #11 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post

True. Some chips can go VERY low on PLL.

My old 5.3Ghz 2500K ran that at 1.496v vCore and 1.550v PLL. (1.15v VCCIO/1.05v VCCSA and 8GB 2133 C9 RAM).

Just a shame I haven't come across a 2600K that can do 5Ghz at reasonable voltages.

If you use 1600Mhz RAM or something like that, you can drop VCCIO/VCCSA as well for a few less degrees. Try 0.9v VCCSA and 1.00v VCCIO (if they are linked, just lower it by 0.05v at a time)

Must be the HT that demands more v+, I guess.

I do use 1600mhz CAS8 RAM. I've had it overclocked to 1866 C9 this week with the CPU at 4.5ghz, but I think I'm going to revert the RAM to stock and try to stabilize 4.8ghz and see what that's like.

Lowering the VCCSA/VCCIO is an excellent idea; thank you. I could definitely use the help with temperature creep. I found out yesterday that its nice and cool for 30min benching, but after that the weak fans become a hindrance and it does start to get toasty.

EDIT: Tried 4.8ghz the past couple nights. The CPU likes max llc (1) only at that speed (0.0005V+ offset; the minimum bootable) at 1.39-1.42v, and seems stable so far. Quite a head scratcher, as LLC1 has a lower idle. I'm gonna see how much more it needs for 5ghz next (which also oddly demands LLC1).

At 4.8ghz LLC2/3, when I exceed 1.38v to overcome P95 worker crashes it becomes less stable and refuses to boot; seems very strange to me.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice everyone. It seems to like lower PLL/VCCIO/VCCSA voltages, and it's helped me to progress. I'll update once it's stable.
Edited by Almost Heathen - 11/14/13 at 12:00am
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post #12 of 59
Highest LLC setting will give rather high voltage spikes when the CPU is fully loaded.

Also keep in mind that when using higher/stronger llc settings, the cpu will not receive as much vcore on medium loads then with a low llc.

On my 2500k, i used a high/strong llc mode with a low offset, this gave low idles voltages and high load voltages.
But i would be Prime95 / IBT Stable, but crash in BF3 because it didnt fully load the CPU and receiving max voltage i set.
So it was on a Lower VID + Low offset and it would crash.

Then i changed to a low/soft llc mode, and a higher offset.
This does give a higher idle voltages compared to the same load voltages.
But when playing BF3 it would receive a higher offset, so it received higher voltage then with the High LLC + Low offset and it would be stable.

Benchmarks software pushes the CPU into the Highest VID. But gaming and other mild loads will not make it pick the Highest VID for that multiplier+LLC.

LLC ''adds'' more voltage the more the load gets higher. So with a mild load you compared to a high load receive less vcore added

Short Version:
High LLC + Low offset can lead to crashes on mild load, thinking you are unstable and keep adding more voltage.
But its not the highest vcore point that is the problem, its when the cpu is only mildly loaded and not receiving the Max VID + Offset (+LLC voltage)
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post #13 of 59
What board are you running Almost?

It kind of sounds like the VRM's aren't liking (temp or load wise) the higher LLC settings.

Plus, VRM's and LLC behave very differently among different boards.

On say, a AsRock you'd wanna run LLC level as low as possible as this gives the most flat vcore response.

On a ASUS, you'd wanna run ''High (50%)'' or ''Ultra High (75%)'' but not Extreme or lower then High.

Gigabyte just blows on all settings in my own experience and I really dislike Gigabyte's LLC implementation.
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post #14 of 59
Why would need to run 50% High, or 75% Ultra High on example a Asus motherboard?

If you run offsets you can either choose:

High LLC + Low Offsets = Low Idle Voltage, Low Voltage on medium load, High Voltage on High Load

or

Low LLC + High Offsets = Higher Idle Voltage, Higher Medium Load Voltage, Same load voltage as HIGH LLC because of high offset.

The second way can lead to lower peak voltage on high load. Because most people will crash and think they need more vcore on 100% load.
But allot of times its the CPU being unstable when its not 100% loaded and will use a Lower VID, but because of the HIGH LLC in comparison it still receives lower voltages on medium load.

Because thats how LLC works, the power the CPU draws != the more LLC will kick in.

So if you play BF3 and load CPU to 75%, it might pick 1.3v as VID instead of 1.35v.
So because you use a low offset, it will run on the VID+offset.
So the LLC allmost has no effect because its not asking so much power.

To counter this you run low llc + high offset.
The LLC still wont kick in, but the higher offset will make the voltage higher then with a high llc and low offset.
Edited by prescotter - 11/14/13 at 4:32am
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post #15 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by prescotter View Post

If you run offsets you can either choose:

High LLC + Low Offsets = Low Idle Voltage, Low Voltage on medium load, High Voltage on High Load
or
Low LLC + High Offsets = Higher Idle Voltage, Higher Medium Load Voltage, Same load voltage as HIGH LLC because of high offset...

Because thats how LLC works, the power the CPU draws != the more LLC will kick in....To counter this you run low llc + high offset.
The LLC still wont kick in, but the higher offset will make the voltage higher then with a high llc and low offset.

Thank you for the in-depth explanation of LLC. That's the clearest definition I've come across by a mile.

Initially, I thought LLC increased the vcore equally at all load percentages. I was surprised when it yielded a lower idle. I never knew it behaved by adding to voltage in response to how high the VID is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post

What board are you running Almost?.
I'll have to add my rig info here, forgot about that. It's an ASRock Z68 Extreme4 (not gen. 3).

In the future, I'll definitely try the lower/less extreme LLC settings. I tried 1, 2, and 3 (the equivalent of ultra-high, high, and medium) with various vccio/vccsa/pll voltages. Finding the sweet spot for those voltages helped immensely. 4.8ghz pulling 1.39-1.42v is the best I've gotten so far; I jumped to 5ghz testing after that. At 5ghz the CPU seems to need ~1.480v for stability, which is outside of my comfort area (and cooling capacity) but I'll enjoy tinkering with it further in my free time to see if it can be made to run that with less voltage.

I quit testing today with it running 5ghz (unstable) at 1.464-1.472v. Here's a screenshot for the heck of it:



Note: Those temps are only after 2 minutes testing (BSOD X101 after that). I'm sure it would get much, much hotter than that.
Edited by Almost Heathen - 11/14/13 at 10:08pm
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post #16 of 59
The Z68 Extreme4 uses rather low cost and not-so-good MOSFETS.

You shouldn't be pushing this hard to begin with or you'll risk damage to your board.

Also, it can throttle now due to overheating / overloading FETS.
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post #17 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Heathen View Post

Initially, I thought LLC increased the vcore equally at all load percentages. I was surprised when it yielded a lower idle. I never knew it behaved by adding to voltage in response to how high the VID is.
I'll have to add my rig info here, forgot about that. It's an ASRock Z68 Extreme4 (not gen. 3).

Well it actually doesnt response to the VID, but just the CPU LOAD i beleave, im not 100% sure on that.

But 4.8g on 1.39v-1.42v is a nice overclock.
Then you would probably need 1.45v-1.47v for 4.9g and to get 5.0g fully stable probably well over 1.5v
(This is just an estimation i made, because my chip also needs 1.4v for 4.8Ghz)

If it crashes in the first few minutes it indicates its a rather long way from stable, so it will probably need quitte a bit more vcore to get fully stable on your 5.0Ghz Overclock.

But nice work and keep it going thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post

The Z68 Extreme4 uses rather low cost and not-so-good MOSFETS.

You shouldn't be pushing this hard to begin with or you'll risk damage to your board.

Also, it can throttle now due to overheating / overloading FETS.
If thats true its probably smart to get a 80mm or 120mm fan to blow air directly on the vrm/mosfet area.
This will greatly improve airflow / temps of the vrm.
And cooler vrm will lead to less vdroop and less fluctuating voltages.

And you still havent responded why he should need to use high or ultra high llc
Edited by prescotter - 11/15/13 at 12:59am
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post #18 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post

The Z68 Extreme4 uses rather low cost and not-so-good MOSFETS.

You shouldn't be pushing this hard to begin with or you'll risk damage to your board.

Thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. Dissapointing; I definitely won't be getting an ASRock again then. They already irritated me, but that's the final straw.

I'll probably stick with 4.5ghz 1.312v in light of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post

Also, it can throttle now due to overheating / overloading FETS.

Huh? I don't quite understand what you mean. The mobo mosfets will have a poor voltage delivery when overclocking, as the poor quality can't cope with the heat and stress, or you think they could be permanently damaged? I know little about motherboard components, so I hope that's not a stupid question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prescotter View Post

Well it actually doesnt response to the VID, but just the CPU LOAD i beleave, im not 100% sure on that.
I see what you mean
Quote:
Originally Posted by prescotter View Post

But 4.8g on 1.39v-1.42v is a nice overclock.
Then you would probably need 1.45v-1.47v for 4.9g and to get 5.0g fully stable probably well over 1.5v
(This is just an estimation i made, because my chip also needs 1.4v for 4.8Ghz)

If it crashes in the first few minutes it indicates its a rather long way from stable, so it will probably need quitte a bit more vcore to get fully stable on your 5.0Ghz Overclock.

But nice work and keep it going thumb.gif

Thanks. I think you right in that it will need ~1.5v.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prescotter View Post

If thats true its probably smart to get a 80mm or 120mm fan to blow air directly on the vrm/mosfet area.
This will greatly improve airflow / temps of the vrm.
And cooler vrm will lead to less vdroop and less fluctuating voltages.

I've got a 120mm case door/side intake fan that points at the motherboard. I'll have to open it up tomorrow and make sure it's hitting the vrm/mosfet area.

I've been running a P95 blend for the past few hours to be certain that I've got 4.5ghz stable, and In AIDA64, VRM1 seems to run very hot at 180F+, whereas VRM2 runs at 80F. I think I'll have to do some research, as I have no idea if 180f is acceptable for the VRMs. I'm thinking I should perhaps stop the stress test and do it tomorrow with an IR thermometer to read temps from the motherboard.
Edited by Almost Heathen - 11/15/13 at 1:58am
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post #19 of 59
I did some google searching on your motherboard and came to this:
Quote:
ASRock Extreme4
- Low-quality VRM including low-quality D-PAK MOSFETs, which have a tendency to overheat and wear out with high overvolts
- Lies by claiming to have a digital VRM which is actually analog
- Under-reports voltage, which can be very dangerous for your CPU
- 4+1 true PWM phases

It seems the power delivery on this motherboard is very weak and will generate allot of heat.
180f is a whopping 82.2 celcius.
If you managet to cool down the VRM's it will inreace its lifetime, and will make your OC more stable.

You should really try and get a fan with some decent airflow to blow directly on these heatsinks:


Id did some more searching and there is no real maximum temprature to be found on the internet.
People say if you know what parts the VRM's are made of you can search for what exact maximum temprature they are rated for.

But for now i think you should dial your OC a bit back and make sure they dont pass 75c.
Untill you get some serious airflow on your vrm's and potentially drop those temps by 10c to 20c.
All depends on how much airflow they receive now and in future with a new fan you can try to let it blow on there.
Edited by prescotter - 11/15/13 at 2:27am
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post #20 of 59
Thread Starter 
thanks for the quick, detailed reply. You got mad Google skills, evidently; I couldn't come up with much info.

I'll have to discontinue stress testing and check that the heatsinks are making good contact and add a fan, as you suggested.
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