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[PCWorld]Oracle seeks Java performance boost, joins HSA Foundation - Page 3

post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

Wow, it would be so cool to use java instead of VHDL for digital design. Object oriented digital design could lead to some incredible developments if they can pull it off.
arent there HDL libraries for c++ already?
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post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

...but it doesn't need to be...

Java can beat C++ in some tasks and high-performance is not usually a critical criteria. thumb.gif

I'll bite, what tasks are you referring to? Portability? C# / C++ has Java beat in every field except portability. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm curious what you're thinking.

Obviously nobody considering Java for a project has a critical criteria of high performance (I sincerely hope, at least).
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post #23 of 28
Java is actually used in many high-performance programs. In a perfect world where everyone writes ideal code for whatever language they program in, C/C++ will be faster and more efficient than Java. In the real world, Java can come very close to C/C++ performance in many scenarios and it's easier to write/maintain it.
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post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

I'll bite, what tasks are you referring to? Portability? C# / C++ has Java beat in every field except portability. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm curious what you're thinking.

Obviously nobody considering Java for a project has a critical criteria of high performance (I sincerely hope, at least).

Java is also easier than C++ with memory management and generally easier to maintain/develop. thumb.gif

C# and C++ are usually faster... but to call Java slow as a generalization is not really fair. There are tasks where it is slower but for many tasks it's about equivalent.
http://scribblethink.org/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html
http://keithlea.com/javabench/

Hadoop is written in Java. That's quite a high performance application. wink.gif

It comes down to... where do you spend resources. Another example.... C++ is faster than Java significantly after optimization. Java was faster before the custom optimizations for C++:
https://days2011.scala-lang.org/sites/days2011/files/ws3-1-Hundt.pdf


Compilers matter here: http://www.freewebs.com/godaves/javabench_revisited/
Edited by DuckieHo - 11/17/13 at 10:08pm
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post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Java is also easier than C++ with memory management and generally easier to maintain/develop. thumb.gif

C# and C++ are usually faster... but to call Java slow as a generalization is not really fair. There are tasks where it is slower but for many tasks it's about equivalent.
http://scribblethink.org/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html
http://keithlea.com/javabench/

Hadoop is written in Java. That's quite a high performance application. wink.gif

It comes down to... where do you spend resources. Another example.... C++ is faster than Java significantly after optimization. Java was faster before the custom optimizations for C++:
https://days2011.scala-lang.org/sites/days2011/files/ws3-1-Hundt.pdf


Compilers matter here: http://www.freewebs.com/godaves/javabench_revisited/

It does go back and forth in some user cases, but links referencing JDK1.3 and written in 2003... Sketchy. Java has been optimized well, and being that I am a Java Developer professionally, I don't have an issue with the language as a whole. But making statements to say C/C++ is slower than java is really just a compiler issue for C/C++. Java is a virtualized language, as such it requires overhead just to execute on the bare metal, it can be close to the performance of C/C++/Assembler but it can't ever beat them.

We'll leave Hadoop out of this from the performance perspective, because the reason it was written in java over C/C++ is likely the easier development, higher readability, and less for the performance because when you have a cluster mentality, you simply through more resources at the cluster if it slows down. (Gross over simplification, but I'm sure you know the concept behind the argument)
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post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

It does go back and forth in some user cases, but links referencing JDK1.3 and written in 2003... Sketchy. Java has been optimized well, and being that I am a Java Developer professionally, I don't have an issue with the language as a whole. But making statements to say C/C++ is slower than java is really just a compiler issue for C/C++. Java is a virtualized language, as such it requires overhead just to execute on the bare metal, it can be close to the performance of C/C++/Assembler but it can't ever beat them.

We'll leave Hadoop out of this from the performance perspective, because the reason it was written in java over C/C++ is likely the easier development, higher readability, and less for the performance because when you have a cluster mentality, you simply through more resources at the cluster if it slows down. (Gross over simplification, but I'm sure you know the concept behind the argument)

The first link was updated in 2010 and the Google paper was from 2011. Note, one of the links showed Intel's C++ compiler was faster.... that was on Intel hardware and with proprietary software.

I totally agree with you that optimized C++ is virtually always faster than Java. C++ gives you that level of control. It goes back to the real-world though.... how many developers are capable of that level of optimization? How many master level developers are out there who are conscience about OS or hardware level difference? Basically, "performance" is not strictly about the language but developer's implementation as well. It is just more nuanced.... I don't want people assuming just because it is written in C++ that is efficient (which we all know happens)! C++ is not a magic bullet (I know you know but others think it is.) thumb.gif

You are right that Hadoop is written in Java because portability. This key feature is requirement in such generalized distributed clusters software.

Here's a project that selected Java over C++ and explained why: http://ateji.blogspot.com/2010/09/java-for-high-performance-computing.html
Edited by DuckieHo - 11/18/13 at 9:46am
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post #27 of 28
For developers, the time needed to develop and maintain their software will be more important than which language will give them the best performance. If developers need more time to create programs in C versus Java then they will probably prefer Java.

C++ and C already support HSA via the Bolt libraries so if developers wanted to use those languages they could.
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvantheDugtrio View Post

For developers, the time needed to develop and maintain their software will be more important than which language will give them the best performance. If developers need more time to create programs in C versus Java then they will probably prefer Java.

C++ and C already support HSA via the Bolt libraries so if developers wanted to use those languages they could.

Not entirely, that's only for new software and there are always other considerations on top of performance. Not the first of which is which language are they building a product in to extend. The only time a "developer" or really a team going to develop a product, actually decides the language being used is at the very beginning of a products life cycle, after that you build on what exists, with whatever is used.

The time argument is cyclical because you also don't want to create a mess which requires a lot of maintenance just to reduce development time.

Even so, it's mostly a moot point, because this is really just a discussion of the performance differences of Java to C/C++. This won't make people move from the C stack to Java or vice versa, organizational inertia is far to strong for a technical detail to overcome. We would need to be talking orders of magnitude cost savings over time before most companies would start thinking about replacing lots of legacy systems / code.
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