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post #13211 of 14605
Quote:
Originally Posted by reev3r View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Not really, at worst I get with a surge that takes my power supply out, my power supply will prevent further damage (hopefully but that doesn't always happen). The harddrives could fail due to power outages but thats about it.

"At LEAST pick up a line conditioner then..." I have a buddy that is an Electrical Engineer for the US military and I asked him about this before, he says and I quote "They are 100% worthless unless you have the worst power lines in the US, in 3rd world country's they have a purpose in the US they do not." He also says that Surge Protectors are worthless and a gimmick (I do use on of those though).

I know fully what a black out can do, I was a network administrator at ASU for almost 5 years......
Its not that I do not know the risks its that to me they are not worth dropping 2 grand on a UPS and doing so every few years when it goes bad. If in 10 years I lose 1 system to a surge well then that is still less than buying UPS's.

If I had a couple million worth of servers with irreplaceable data than it would be different. However for my home PC that is a few grand and has some games and windows install that I frequently redo its not such a big deal, to me but everyone is different.

I find what your friend said to be questionable, at best... Particularly the bit about the surge suppressors... If you've ever monitored what can happen during a surge, I believe you might think differently. The line conditioner bit, perhaps he is correct in most cases, but when I lived up in northern MN for a few years, a line conditioner or Sine Wave UPS was absolutely necessary to avoid damage during normal mains operation, let alone during a power fault, I lost several PSU's, and more than one entire system due to the mains power there. I have not had any issues where I am currently, but in the past, without some sort of protection, even if just a surge suppressor (they have saved my gear many times), I have lost a LOT of electronic equipment, ranging from TV's, to computers, even lost my NES back in the 80's when an earthquake happened in California, also lost almost my entire house when the power was interrupted during a Tornado when I was down towards the Twin Cities about 10 years ago. Although I always had things behind a 'power strip', I was 'young' and arrogant, and thought something childish like, "Pffft. If they were necessary then...", so now, I use a Pure Sine Wave UPS, and everything is behind a surge suppressor. We have had several outages, including one night when my roommate was doing laundry drunk and thought the breaker blew, so he just started flipping breakers throughout the house randomly and repeatedly for several minutes at 2am, I woke up and pulled the dang knob on the washer and to his amazement it turned on... Needless to say, I flipped out on him for endangering the >$10,000 worth of computer equipment in my room. Freaking Jacktard!

Anyway, my experiences aside, better safe than sorry is always a good motto to live by. :-)

As well, something to consider, that would definitely be less expensive, is either to purchase a used UPS with faulty battery modules, and simply replace them (Which can be done with any SLA battery, or even a car battery if you live on the edge... lol), or you can just as well make your own UPS, which, although without the fancy features that the higher end units will have, it will at the very least do the part, and can be made for pennies by comparison... Maybe you could even buy a couple of consumer grade units and run them in parallel for sufficient capacity, although that was just a quick, popped in my head thought and I've no idea how realistic that idea is... I do know that you can increase the capacity of *most* consumer UPS units by simply adding more SLA batteries... Might be worth considering.
i will say it, his EE friend ( isnt it amazing how everyone on the interwebs is a engineer of sorts ~! ) is flat out wrong.or he does NOT understand line conditioners,

they do not help short term anything. like with pc psus, they provide QUALITY input power hopefully LENGTHENING the life of equip, but in our terms it can also help with a better oc ( quality power in = more quality power out, more stable power/quality power can = better ocs )
now with that said, my UPS constantly and consistently trips on HIGH input voltage

now my pcs dont care, but i use these on my nas, where i want quality everything as it maintains my valueable info !

do you NEED IT ? no

does the lack of necessity make a power line conditioner bad/bad idea/ useless? ...... ill let you answer that., you also dont NEED a house, car, garage, pool, hot water, refrigerator. you can live without them, but does the lack of need, mean they are useless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by reev3r View Post

I find what your friend said to be questionable, at best... Particularly the bit about the surge suppressors... If you've ever monitored what can happen during a surge, I believe you might think differently. The line conditioner bit, perhaps he is correct in most cases, but when I lived up in northern MN for a few years, a line conditioner or Sine Wave UPS was absolutely necessary to avoid damage during normal mains operation, let alone during a power fault, I lost several PSU's, and more than one entire system due to the mains power there. I have not had any issues where I am currently, but in the past, without some sort of protection, even if just a surge suppressor (they have saved my gear many times), I have lost a LOT of electronic equipment, ranging from TV's, to computers, even lost my NES back in the 80's when an earthquake happened in California, also lost almost my entire house when the power was interrupted during a Tornado when I was down towards the Twin Cities about 10 years ago. Although I always had things behind a 'power strip', I was 'young' and arrogant, and thought something childish like, "Pffft. If they were necessary then...", so now, I use a Pure Sine Wave UPS, and everything is behind a surge suppressor. We have had several outages, including one night when my roommate was doing laundry drunk and thought the breaker blew, so he just started flipping breakers throughout the house randomly and repeatedly for several minutes at 2am, I woke up and pulled the dang knob on the washer and to his amazement it turned on... Needless to say, I flipped out on him for endangering the >$10,000 worth of computer equipment in my room. Freaking Jacktard!

Anyway, my experiences aside, better safe than sorry is always a good motto to live by. :-)

As well, something to consider, that would definitely be less expensive, is either to purchase a used UPS with faulty battery modules, and simply replace them (Which can be done with any SLA battery, or even a car battery if you live on the edge... lol), or you can just as well make your own UPS, which, although without the fancy features that the higher end units will have, it will at the very least do the part, and can be made for pennies by comparison... Maybe you could even buy a couple of consumer grade units and run them in parallel for sufficient capacity, although that was just a quick, popped in my head thought and I've no idea how realistic that idea is... I do know that you can increase the capacity of *most* consumer UPS units by simply adding more SLA batteries... Might be worth considering.


Those Surge protectors, those do work kind of but that is the problem. from what I have read and what he told me I gather this. They do stop a surge but only 1 time, and even a small surge can set them off and most power lines have small surges quite frequently. So when you have a small spike surge that wouldn't have hurt anything the "Surge Protector" trips its 1 time internals and then you turn it back on or it doesn't even turn off. Know when you get hit by a large surge that would fry components it no longer has the ability to stop the surge. It would seem though in my looking to find a good article for you that there is diffrent types of surge protectors so that is something to take into account. Now that I know this I am going to look for better oens smile.gif.

Anyway here is a good post about surge protectors. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/875254-11-myths-surge-protection.html

who ever said to get a cheap ups, and increasing batteries is not nessisarrily a good idea, ---- you can damage your ups that way, but ill let the " EE" friend explain that to you,

NOT ALL SURGE protectors are the same,

esp when you compare decent ( NOT ENTRYLEVEL like you assume ) ups.
Edited by Mega Man - 2/11/16 at 7:41pm
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post #13212 of 14605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

i will say it, his EE friend ( isnt it amazing how everyone on the interwebs is a engineer of sorts ~! ) is flat out wrong.or he does NOT understand line conditioners,

they do not help short term anything. like with pc psus, they provide QUALITY input power hopefully LENGTHENING the life of equip, but in our terms it can also help with a better oc ( quality power in = more quality power out, more stable power/quality power can = better ocs )

This is exactly why he said it was useless, in most cases in the US your power isn't really that "Dirty" so it doesn't need cleaned. Is this always true no, is it true most of the time in the US yes.

" isnt it amazing how everyone on the inter webs is a engineer of sorts ~!" I am on the inter webs and I am not an Engineer of any sort. so think your comment might be a little vague. However that is okay lets insult the guy that not only is an Engineer but uses those skills to serve our Country.

However that said just because he is an Engineer doesn't make him a god, he is allowed to be wrong and if you have some proof they do work that you can link I would be happy to look it over as I would like to know. He very well may be wrong as his job consists of setting up power grids ect for bases all around the world, he may not have much need to install power conditioners. Just because someone went to school for something doesn't mean they will remember everything I sure do not.

Especially this better OCs, because honestly that just seems a little hard to believe, but if its true I will run and buy a LC right now smile.gif.

Edit:
According to Toms Hardware Line conditioners "an temporarily bridge a brownout or low-voltage situation." Well I personally have never had a Brown Out nor a Voltage issue, that I know of but I do not check that lol so I concede I wouldn't know.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-protection-calculate-consumption,3066-8.html

Also doing a little light reading on these things, from what I have seen the company's selling them and there reasoning. They say they help with EMI caused by appliances in the home? In the case of my living room PCs this could be helpful then (assuming they do help), In the case of my Main PC (in the man cave).

This PC is on its own outlet, this outlet goes to a breaker box that is completely separate from the house. It is on its own circuit, as is another 30 amp breaker both have 20 amp outlets single outlets, so each these outlets are used for PCs, and are wired with 10g romex . Now this breaker box does also have 2 15 amp breakers that control the rest of the outlets in the room. I do have a mini fridge in there but that is it and it is on one of the 15s.

Again both the house and and the man cave are completely separate from each other, they both split off in different directions from the 240v in from the Power Company. My house has the typical inside breaker box in a wall, the Man Cave has only an outside breaker box.

Both due however share a 240v 200amp breaker at the mains. It goes from the power company's meter than to the 240 breaker then ts off to the house and man cave. So would this "Dirty Power" affect me?

Now if it does affect me by a backfeed? (dont know if thats a thing lol), this is what led me to asking him to begin with. My main line is shared even more I think. So to give you a more complex idea.

As you know as I told you before (Plus its in my profile smile.gif) I own an RV park. My mains come in from the meter, they are then split to 4 sets, 1 set controls My house, My man cave, 2 Rv spaces. Those 2 Rv spaces are no longer in use as they have been filled with my Junk and a Shed (actually a 8x30 shipping container but I use it as a shed tongue.gif).

Anyway the other 3 also have the same 240v 200amp breakers they each go to 10 spaces each with there own distribution box that is metered, 30 spaces 3 breakers (actually 29 but whatever smile.gif)

So if the back feeding does still happen from that then I most likely defiantly need one as my power would be very very dirty by there reasoning. Also just to note as it is a business I have 3 poles on my property, to run to my mains. And my own transformer set on the pole (2 or 3 I dont much pay attention) not sure what affect that plays into power cleanliness.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/11/16 at 8:33pm
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post #13213 of 14605
Again.

No need does not make worthless. And I already explained how they help, go read up on power supplies as to why clean power matters, now that does not mean you NEED clean power to turn on a pc, you know you can go buy that 15$ psu... it will power your pc. It is the same concept
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post #13214 of 14605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Again.

No need does not make worthless.

It does in this context read what I said again, "They are 100% worthless unless you have the worst power lines in the US, in 3rd world country's they have a purpose in the US they do not."

The definition of Worthless, "having no real value or use."

If your power is not dirty than it is not needed, if it is not needed it is worthless. I do however get what you are saying however I also see it from his side.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Again.
I already explained how they help, go read up on power supplies as to why clean power matters, now that does not mean you NEED clean power to turn on a pc, you know you can go buy that 15$ psu... it will power your pc. It is the same concept

I was confused of your earlier statement I re read it and see where I got confused. I though you were saying power line conditioners increased OC ability, I see now you were saying that about PSUs. So they help to lengthening the life of the power supply, is what you are saying?

I have tried to find info about it however all that I find is people saying that is needed, the people that are saying that are also the ones that sell. The threads of discussion by people on forums result in they are snake oil, so I ask again any refrences from people in our industry that are trusted that give the why and the how? Or are we simply believing what the company's that make them are telling us?
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post #13215 of 14605
ok, i dont know how to make this any more clear to you,

Quote:
worth·less
[ˈwərTHləs]
ADJECTIVE

having no real value or use:
Source

(china blocks google ! )

The oppisite of need - needless
Quote:
need·less
[ˈnēdləs]
ADJECTIVE

(of something bad) unnecessary; avoidable:
Source

do you NEED it -no
does that make it worthless -no

i did not say it WOULD make your overclock better i said it MAY,

one service it does is provide CLEAN power to your psu, which then can provide CLEANER power to your pc, there are alot of factors. but it CAN help
they exist for a reason, because your friend has a EE ( weather he does or not, lets assume he does ) does not mean he knows anything about pcs and how they operate,

cleaner power= happier pc, again go look it up if you dont believe me on that.

input power does effect output power.

and o my the whole internets says they are not needed, so yea everything on the interwebs is true too .... woooo

let us take apart 1 power supply, lets pic the first one on jonnygurus site cause i am lazy

lets goto page 5 disassembly
Quote:

Lots of line filtering going on again here. Looks just as robust as the bigger unit

yep.... line filtering must be useless, every psu has them built in even though they serve no point, going further making the power even cleaner must also serve no point. - ironically the more efficient they get the more beefy the filtering gets.... hmmm headscratch.gif wonder why ....

again i will say, you dont NEED it, however that does not make it WORTHLESS
Edited by Mega Man - 2/12/16 at 7:30am
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post #13216 of 14605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

ok, i dont know how to make this any more clear to you,
Source

(china blocks google ! )

The oppisite of need - needless
Source

do you NEED it -no
does that make it worthless -no

i did not say it WOULD make your overclock better i said it MAY,

Ya thats what I said, I misread you the first time my bad. Not going to get into the different interpretation of the words its open to interpretation, the fact at hand is it is not needed, that was the point he was trying to make and we agree on that so moving on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

ok, i dont know how to make this any more clear to you,
Source

because your friend has a EE ( weather he does or not, lets assume he does ) does not mean he knows anything about pcs and how they operate,

I agree 110% as a matter of fact so does he, when I ask him PC related questions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

ok, i dont know how to make this any more clear to you,
Source

The oppisite of need - needless
Source

one service it does is provide CLEAN power to your psu, which then can provide CLEANER power to your pc, there are alot of factors. but it CAN help
they exist for a reason.

cleaner power= happier pc, again go look it up if you dont believe me on that.

input power does effect output power.

and o my the whole internets says they are not needed, so yea everything on the interwebs is true too .... woooo

Okay well now you are contradicting yourself thus my problem, You tell me to look it up I do and share my finding and you say they are not true? That is why I asked you for credible sources of your examples. I am also not trying to argue with you, I do not know if it helps or not and am very curious to know. However I want scientific fact not just ramblings you know what I mean, not saying you dont know what you are talking about or that he does I am simply stating I would like to see evidence one way or the other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

ok, i dont know how to make this any more clear to you,
Source

let us take apart 1 power supply, lets pic the first one on jonnygurus site cause i am lazy

lets goto page 5 disassembly
yep.... line filtering must be useless, every psu has them built in even though they serve no point, going further making the power even cleaner must also serve no point. - ironically the more efficient they get the more beefy the filtering gets.... hmmm headscratch.gif wonder why ....

again i will say, you dont NEED it, however that does not make it WORTHLESS

Well now you are comparing apples and oranges, that Line filtering in a DC power Supply is for Ripple Suppression and Voltage drops in a PC, those DC voltages are a big deal. A GPU for example needs 12 volts 11 volts can be a problem, this is why DC power supply's have line filters. However in my looking at line filters in general this was a common theme, DC power and AC power are different things and have different requirements and needs. A PC power supply does not line filter the AC in.

I will go on to say there is a big glaring fact to why is does not serve a purpose in our case. What a Line filter can do, is stabilize voltage, so for instance my lines are 120v, without a line filter they may drop to 115 or 110 or spike to 125 130 ect. However with a quality Power Supply this is accounted for, as is it in most TVs, Stereos ect.

The Power Supply is not rated to use 115v and 115v only, rather they accept a range of the spectrum for instance 110-140v at 50-60hz. This eliminates the need for a Line Filter as a small drop or spike will not have any effect. If you are having large spikes or drops well than you have bigger issues and your Electric company needs to repair those. That is what I am gathering anyway, however Line Filters also provide surge protection that is much better than the MOV style cheap surge protectors so it is useful in that way.

Now that you made this assumption of above I ask when you say a PC wants clean power are you speaking about clean DC? As if you are yes I can and do agree to that, that is known by most and true. However we are not talking about the DC voltages but rather the AC line which is a lot different. In a quality power supply a spike should not affect DC voltage in any way, if it did well the it wouldn't be doing its job correctly.

Thing is AC is distributed differently there is no standard that says everyone in the US has 115v, that is usually most common but there are other voltages. As I sated I have 120v power lines to my equipment not 115v. This is why most electrical devices are made to be used within a range, this is what makes the line filtering useless in most cases. As your spikes and drops should be within range, if they are not then that is an issue that is best served by the power company fixing the issue not a band aid power filter.

I will check out your links however, I am very curious to see if these things work or not. They do provide surge protection and if they help at all then I would like to pick a few up they are not that expensive. I just honestly think they are snake oil, from what I have been told, seen, and know.

If line filter were as important as you say or can extend the life of a PSU then quality PSUs would have one built it wouldn't it? I consider my PSU that I believe you also own 1 of would have one built in to the AC line, they do not. So EVGA is giving me a 10 year warranty, on a power supply that may die in 3 due to "dirty power" or lets say it takes longer like 7, not that most people will keep a power supply that long. That is still within there warranty window, so why take the chance?

So I think we can safely assume that in the case of the EVGA it can run for 10 years without a filter and not experience issues. 10 years is away longer than 90% of people will use that power supply. If it does in fact have an AC line filter that I do not know about well then that eliminates the need for an external 1 so we are back to its useless.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/12/16 at 8:36am
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post #13217 of 14605
o dear god, no , that is AC line filtering, NOT DC which the psu also has,

EVERY PSU has ac line filtering doh.gif

from the above link
Quote:

Once again, no line filtering is done on the housing side... it's all on the mainboard.

i even gave you a link, told you what page and made a quote, you didnt even read the context which is 99% pictures and would of taken 5 min to read .....


that is an AC line voltage socket, not a dc socket, where several companies put AC line voltage filtering ! but in this case it was put on the mainboard....

as to power- in the us it can be ( most average ) between 110-126 who said anything about it has to be 115? i really am starting to question if you understand anything power related on a pc or anything, as this subject was the reason you got on my block list to begin with

lastly i never said line conditioning was the end all be all, i did say it was not worthless your word not mine, and anyone who says it is, is frankly and i am being excessively nice when i say this, someone who i would never take or relay advice from.

esp when dealing with higher and higher efficiency is EXTREMELY important
Edited by Mega Man - 2/12/16 at 8:55am
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post #13218 of 14605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

o dear god, no , that is AC line filtering, NOT DC which the psu also has,

EVERY PSU has ac line filtering doh.gif

from the above link
i even gave you a link, told you what page and made a quote, you didnt even read the context which is 99% pictures and would of taken 5 min to read .....


that is an AC line voltage socket, not a dc socket, where several companies put AC line voltage filtering ! but in this case it was put on the mainboard....

as to power- in the us it can be ( most average ) between 110-126 who said anything about it has to be 115? i really am starting to question if you understand anything power related on a pc or anything, as this subject was the reason you got on my block list to begin with

lastly i never said line conditioning was the end all be all, i did say it was not worthless your word not mine, and anyone who says it is, is frankly and i am being excessively nice when i say this, someone who i would never take or relay advice from.

esp when dealing with higher and higher efficiency is EXTREMELY important

"who said anything about it has to be 115? i really am starting to question if you understand anything power related on a pc or anything" no one said that, I used it as an example to go with my point. Line filtering helps with spikes and drops, however those spikes and drops are accounted for by the voltage range.

"as this subject was the reason you got on my block list to begin with " Really because I seem to remember it being you making a stupid statement that I then called you on, which we then made a post about and the at the time OCN power supply editor told you that you were wrong so. By all means keep bringing that up though, better yet would you like a link to the thread were 10 people told you, you were just trying to argue? Please go argue with someone else.

Lets refresh what that was eh,

You said power is measured in AMPs that is wrong period. Power is measured by Power in the equation and Power in the equation is substituted by Watts not amps. The reason that amps are not used to measure is they are part of the equation that is variable. Amps X Volts = Watts, this is why Electricity is measured in watts not amps. I explained this to you as did numerous other people and yet you still tout your fact, well your fact is wrong.

If the Power Supply's already have Line filters well than it sounds like a external one serves no purpose IE worthless. I already stated this is in my post that you quoted to give this the benefit of the doubt.

I also never claimed to know much about PC power supply's, I do know the basics of electricity and I can read and everything I have read says you are wrong, and Line filters are worthless snake oil. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked for evidence. You refused to provide it, and then when I found my own you said it was wrong. So I am done talking to you as you have shown you are just spouting off things you think with no factual evidence what so ever. I am sorry but what you think is of no relevance to me at all, I do not know you, nor trust your opinion nor anyone else's for that matter I deal in facts and those you have yet to provide.

Further on you have not only insulted me multiple times in our history but now have my friend, I wish you all the luck, but I will now be placing you on my block list feel free to do the same.
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Razer Black Widow Wltimate  EVGA G2 1600w Case Labs STH10 Razer Deathadder (2013)(Modded with Blue LEDs) 
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Razer Goliath  Razer Electra, Corsair Vengeance 2000, Kingston... EK Vardars 140mm razer nostromos  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 5820k Evga Micro 2 X99 EVGA Superclocked + 980ti Gskill Ripjaws V 
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Up in the AIR Up in the air still.  Windows 10 XFX 850 W pro.  
Case
Hex Gear R40 
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post #13219 of 14605
Hay guys been a long long time my system has been doing great for well over a year now and need to ask a question still on original bios 40*whatever and some old nividia drivers 353. Something lol... it's just been working, my question is going to update my Titan drivers do I need to do the registry hack to get the pice gen 3.0 like back in the day? And wondering if I should do the bios as well thanks
Wating for broadwell-E 6950x thumb.gif
Edited by Ftimster - 2/13/16 at 11:53pm
My System
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I7 4960x 4.8 at 1.350v 56c at load Rampage iv BE tri-sli titan evga sc running xspc razer waterb... 32gb Dominator platinum 2400c10 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Intel 520 240gb samsung evo 1TB × 2 2 wd 4 tb hard drives Samsung blue-ray × 2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
two D5 1 480 acool 1 360 acool 1 240 xspc  Window 7 pro 64 bit windows 8.1 dual boot Four asus 26.5 6000×1200 + accessory display G-19 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair ax1200 watt 900D rat 9 Bose cinemate GS2 Awsome!!!! 
Other
lots of awsome watercooling 
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My System
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I7 4960x 4.8 at 1.350v 56c at load Rampage iv BE tri-sli titan evga sc running xspc razer waterb... 32gb Dominator platinum 2400c10 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Intel 520 240gb samsung evo 1TB × 2 2 wd 4 tb hard drives Samsung blue-ray × 2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
two D5 1 480 acool 1 360 acool 1 240 xspc  Window 7 pro 64 bit windows 8.1 dual boot Four asus 26.5 6000×1200 + accessory display G-19 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair ax1200 watt 900D rat 9 Bose cinemate GS2 Awsome!!!! 
Other
lots of awsome watercooling 
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post #13220 of 14605
Not sure if i should continue to buy new hardware for this rig or not will getting the intel 750 too boot be a hassle or is there a community bios update for nvme? Since asus pretty well dropped this board and erased all memory of its existance.

There was a poll done for nvme on x79. x85 and z97 raja commrnted on looked like x79 got well over 1000 requests but thst never went anywere.
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