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post #161 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

While that is true, what law is there saying that an APU has to slow in CPU functions and has to cost under $150?

The 2600k has a transistor count of 1.16 billion, while the FX-8350 has a transistor count of 1.2 billion. The 2600k has an iGPU while the FX-8350 does not, yet it gets similar multithreaded performance and vastly superior single-threaded performance.

Just because something is an APU does not mean it is low performance.

For now we assume AMD apu has weak cpu performance when compared to the competition.

Last time I checked a 2600k wasnt an apu. From what I know an apu has a dx11 gpu.

Correct me if I am wrong.
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post #162 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

While that is true, what law is there saying that an APU has to slow in CPU functions and has to cost under $150?

The 2600k has a transistor count of 1.16 billion, while the FX-8350 has a transistor count of 1.2 billion. The 2600k has an iGPU while the FX-8350 does not, yet it gets similar multithreaded performance and vastly superior single-threaded performance.

Just because something is an APU does not mean it is low performance.

For now we assume AMD apu has weak cpu performance when compared to the competition.

Last time I checked a 2600k wasnt an apu. From what I know an apu has a dx11 gpu.

Correct me if I am wrong.

APU is the designation AMD gave their combined CPU + GPU solution starting with the FM1 platform, it has nothing to do with whether the built-in GPU is DX 11 compliant or not. It just happened that the GPU in those APUs was already DX 11 compliant. I don't think you can infer that it needs to be DX 11 compliant in order to deserve to be called an APU, even from a general compute standpoint, DX 10 and 10.1 compliant GPUs already have compute capabilities.

Intel just started putting a GPU inside their CPUs and continued calling them CPUs, that's all, it's a route that also makes sense. CPUs have gotten a lot more elements in them over the years (the math co-processor, L1, L2, L3 cache, memory controller, more than one CPU core, PCI-e controller, fixed function video codecs, and the GPU itself), so the designation "Central Processing Unit" applies perfectly to a CPU + GPU. Also, not that it matters to the discussion, but, from Ivy Bridge mainstream CPUs onwards the GPUs are DX 11 compliant.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/13/14 at 8:56am
 
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post #163 of 197
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Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

APU is the designation AMD gave their combined CPU + GPU solution starting with the FM1 platform, it has nothing to do with whether the built-in GPU is DX 11 compliant or not. It just happened that the GPU in those APUs was already DX 11 compliant. I don't think you can infer that it needs to be DX 11 compliant in order to deserve to be called an APU, even from a general compute standpoint, DX 10 and 10.1 compliant GPUs already have compute capabilities.

Intel just started putting a GPU inside their CPUs and continued calling them CPUs, that's all, it's a route that also makes sense. CPUs have gotten a lot more elements in them over the years (the math co-processor, L1, L2, L3 cache, memory controller, more than one CPU core, PCI-e controller, fixed function video codecs, and the GPU itself), so the designation "Central Processing Unit" applies perfectly to a CPU + GPU. Also, not that it matters to the discussion, but, from Ivy Bridge mainstream CPUs onwards the GPUs are DX 11 compliant.

The accelerated part is referring to gpu being able to do compute.

I am not inferring anything. I read somewhere that it needs to have dx11 compatible gpu.
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post #164 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

APU is the designation AMD gave their combined CPU + GPU solution starting with the FM1 platform, it has nothing to do with whether the built-in GPU is DX 11 compliant or not. It just happened that the GPU in those APUs was already DX 11 compliant. I don't think you can infer that it needs to be DX 11 compliant in order to deserve to be called an APU, even from a general compute standpoint, DX 10 and 10.1 compliant GPUs already have compute capabilities.

Intel just started putting a GPU inside their CPUs and continued calling them CPUs, that's all, it's a route that also makes sense. CPUs have gotten a lot more elements in them over the years (the math co-processor, L1, L2, L3 cache, memory controller, more than one CPU core, PCI-e controller, fixed function video codecs, and the GPU itself), so the designation "Central Processing Unit" applies perfectly to a CPU + GPU. Also, not that it matters to the discussion, but, from Ivy Bridge mainstream CPUs onwards the GPUs are DX 11 compliant.

The accelerated part is referring to gpu being able to do compute.

I am not inferring anything. I read somewhere that it needs to have dx11 compatible gpu.

As I said, DX 10 and 10.1 compliant GPUs are also able to do general purpose computing, although they are not as evolved as DX 11, of course. And I said this because the Core i7-2600K has a DX 10.1 compliant GPU.

In any case, the term APU is a made-up designation by AMD, and it applies to AMD products only, of course when we make the comparison to Intel CPUs it's on unofficial terms.

All in all, the designation means what the creator of the designation wants it to mean, which is irrelevant to the discussion. An APU could even have a DX 9 GPU as a GPU does floating point processing and accelerates graphics processing, back in the day GPUs were even called "graphics accelerators", so you can see where the term "APU" comes from and how it could really apply to anything, as long as AMD wants to.

As I said, it means what you want it to mean, in the end it's irrelevant. What counts is facts. The i7-2600K has a built-in GPU and it's still called a CPU because that is what Intel calls it, they could have come up with a different name if they wanted to, but they thought they were still CPUs, which from a technical point of view is a pretty accurate description of what they do.
 
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post #165 of 197
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Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


In any case, the term APU is a made-up designation by AMD, and it applies to AMD products only, of course when we make the comparison to Intel CPUs it's on unofficial terms.

Ahh no it is not.
Quote:
An Accelerated Processing Unit (APU, also Advanced Processing Unit) is a computer's main processing unit that includes additional processing capability designed to accelerate one or more types of computations outside of a central processing unit (CPU). This may include a graphics processing unit (GPU) used for general-purpose computing (GPGPU), a field-programmable gate array (FPGA), or similar specialized processing system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_processing_unit
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post #166 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


In any case, the term APU is a made-up designation by AMD, and it applies to AMD products only, of course when we make the comparison to Intel CPUs it's on unofficial terms.

Ahh no it is not.
Quote:
An Accelerated Processing Unit (APU, also Advanced Processing Unit) is a computer's main processing unit that includes additional processing capability designed to accelerate one or more types of computations outside of a central processing unit (CPU). This may include a graphics processing unit (GPU) used for general-purpose computing (GPGPU), a field-programmable gate array (FPGA), or similar specialized processing system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_processing_unit

Er.... yes, it is. I'm talking about the AMD marketed products, which go by the name "Accelerated Processing Unit", not "Accelerator Processor Units". In any case, that Wikipedia article is basically as subjective as it gets because the term is subjective. I could call an FX-8350 an APU because it includes math co-processors. There is not a single unified theory of what an APU is.

Whether you and whoever wrote the Wikipedia article likes to generalize it to other products is a pretty valid opinion that makes sense, like we do all the time by essentially saying that Intel also sells APUs, but it's still an AMD marketed designation to a product line.

And having an on-die GPU that is DX 10.1 or DX 11 compliant is irrelevant to the discussion, both can do compute, so even if you generalize the term, Intel mainstream CPUs, including SB, are APUs.
 
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post #167 of 197
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Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Er.... yes, it is. I'm talking about the AMD marketed products, which go by the name "Accelerated Processing Unit", not "Accelerator Processor Units". In any case, that Wikipedia article is basically as subjective as it gets because the term is subjective. I could call an FX-8350 an APU because it includes math co-processors. There is not a single unified theory of what an APU is.

Whether you and whoever wrote the Wikipedia article likes to generalize it to other products is a pretty valid opinion that makes sense, like we do all the time by essentially saying that Intel also sells APUs, but it's still an AMD marketed designation to a product line.

And having an on-die GPU that is DX 10.1 or DX 11 compliant is irrelevant to the discussion, both can do compute, so even if you generalize the term, Intel mainstream CPUs, including SB, are APUs.

Lol I don't have time to write on Wiki.

Thanks. Take your made up facts somewhere else.
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post #168 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Er.... yes, it is. I'm talking about the AMD marketed products, which go by the name "Accelerated Processing Unit", not "Accelerator Processor Units". In any case, that Wikipedia article is basically as subjective as it gets because the term is subjective. I could call an FX-8350 an APU because it includes math co-processors. There is not a single unified theory of what an APU is.

Whether you and whoever wrote the Wikipedia article likes to generalize it to other products is a pretty valid opinion that makes sense, like we do all the time by essentially saying that Intel also sells APUs, but it's still an AMD marketed designation to a product line.

And having an on-die GPU that is DX 10.1 or DX 11 compliant is irrelevant to the discussion, both can do compute, so even if you generalize the term, Intel mainstream CPUs, including SB, are APUs.

Lol I don't have time to write on Wiki.

Thanks. Take your made up facts somewhere else.

?

I didn't say you wrote the article.

If you read the headline though, even other contributors have doubts about it:
Quote:
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (September 2011)

In any case, you're the one making up a discussion when you were the one who claimed to not know for sure if an APU had to have a DX 11 compliant GPU built-in. I just answered that with facts, as a DX 10.1 GPU has general compute capabilities (this is a fact), even though we are talking about a subjective term that, according to the article, first came up in 2006. As you should know, in 2006 there were no DX 11 GPUs (this is a fact). But that is meaningless, as that article refers to something else, but still, it only serves to disprove your erroneous concept of an APU having to have a DX 11 GPU built-in.

I don't know where you came up with the opinion that I was making up facts, you are the one making a fuss over something as simple as this: no, an APU does not have to have a DX 11 compliant GPU built-in, even going by the general compute capability guideline, SB's DX 10.1 GPU qualifies. I was correcting you because you were wrong, per your own request.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/13/14 at 10:21am
 
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post #169 of 197
Actually tpi2007 is right. The term APU was nowhere in sight until AMD brought it to market. It is nothing more than a term that AMD use to designate their products that have igpus. DX 10/11 has nothing to do with it. By definition, ANY cpu with igpu is what AMD calls an APU. So Intel's cpus could also be called APUs if they marketed them as such. This has been discussed over and over previously so can we get back on topic now?

I was a bit hesitant at the $173 price. But these rumors of a $200 price tag for the 7850K are ludicrous! The only way that price would make sense is if HSA was widely adapted and Kaveri stomped the competition in various workloads with it. But such is not the case. If it does end up costing that much, then I will have to pass.
Edited by computerparts - 1/13/14 at 10:38am
post #170 of 197
Microcenter has the 7850k in their paper for $179.99. Will that put it on newegg for $189.99-199.99? Who knows! I'll say this, at anything over $150 ain't worth it IMO. An i3 and 7750/gtx 650 will yield overall stronger gaming performance for similar cost.

If one were to invest in a "strong" Kaveri build and they'd need an A88x board and obviously an aftermarket cooler.

The i3 needs nothing more than a basic board and its stock cooler. Those two alone will save you enough money to invest in a cheap dedicated gpu such as the 7750/gtx 650.

If everything left stock and built cheap as possible, even then, it would be close. The i3 will cost $50ish less then the 7850k to put towards a cheap dedicated GPU. Boards would cost roughly the same, even giving the advantage to intel. Because even stock, the 7850K will push some wattage through the socket.

I'm not slamming Kaveri for what it is. For an APU, it will be awesome! But unless someone can prove me otherwise, I can't see the $180+ price justifiable. Lets not forget RAM too. You'll want 2133+ with Kaveri. Intel is good with 1600.

Regardless, I'm excited for its release thumb.gif
Edited by iRUSH - 1/13/14 at 11:24am
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