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[electroiq] Hynix and AMD working on 3D stacked memory - Page 4

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by serothis View Post

There's a fundamental difference between need and benefit. granted I don't NEED to run my cpu at 4.7ghz. I could run it at stock and be fine; but that doesn't mean I don't see a benefit when running it at high clocks. Most programs that most people use won't benefit from multiple threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladcrooks View Post

Well games, any editing i presume any rendering.

For the normal home user i would imagine it would be a luxury rather than a need thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

Not really analogous... the primary difference here is that the work you put into overclocking your CPU benefits some applications; you're getting a return on your investment. The work you put into threading an application that doesn't gain performance from parallel processing won't benefit anyone.

What I'm saying, is that if an application benefits from a faster CPU... you can be damned sure it will benefit from being highly threaded.
Edited by Ultracarpet - 12/17/13 at 2:13pm
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post #32 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

What I'm saying, is that if an application benefits from a faster CPU... you can be damned sure it will benefit from being highly threaded.

This is exactly the misconception he's speaking of.

Programs that do not benefit from threading are programs that have to perform it's calculations in serial. This means that the next calculation has to wait for the previous calculation to finish before it can actually perform it's work.

Believe it or not, this is a vast majority of applications.

If you try to thread these applications, you'll find you are gaining exactly zero benefit, as the thread will stall until the information it requires becomes available.

I didn't realize how difficult this was to explain until I started typing it...

Threading is extremely useful when you have live updating components that have their own calculations or I/O to perform that are time consuming and/or blocking. Most user interfaces are done this way: they spawn on a different thread so that the user interface remains snappy while the background work is being done. It doesn't matter when the background thread picks up the new work, because the UI has acknowledged the input from the user, so the user now knows it's his/her turn to wait. Plus, most of the time the delay is so small that the user doesn't really notice it.

But keep in mind, that's only 2 threads, and the separation between UI and background work is a very easy distinction to make. From that point, it becomes exponentially more difficult to find where threading is possible and/or if it is even beneficial. Furthermore, the threading between the UI and the background processes isn't actually speeding up the work, it's just making the presentation to the user seem quicker.

Amdahl's law is exactly what this is all about. It looks complicated, but the basic idea is that you have a finite amount of time; put the work where you will see the most gain (ie. where the program spends most of it's time).

Most of the time, that's not through threading, but through optimizations for a specific architecture.
Edited by SectorNine50 - 12/17/13 at 2:28pm
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post #33 of 39
JunkoXan I ove the binary code you put in though it was not anywhere near 2 mins to translate that lol. It is awesome to say the least!
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post #34 of 39
SectorNine50 as well, if that isn't the most true thing I have heard in the last 2 decades I don't know what it. Sad as it may be it sure is the truth. We can thank any society that bases our entire way of life around money which is in turn based off of (or used to be anyway) off a shiny totally useless rock... Well I guess its not totally useless. Gold plated stereo cables seem to be better though I have always wondered if copper wouldn't be a better choice for that due to electrical conductivity.
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post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

This is exactly the misconception he's speaking of.

Programs that do not benefit from threading are programs that have to perform it's calculations in serial. This means that the next calculation has to wait for the previous calculation to finish before it can actually perform it's work.

Believe it or not, this is a vast majority of applications.

If you try to thread these applications, you'll find you are gaining exactly zero benefit, as the thread will stall until the information it requires becomes available.

I didn't realize how difficult this was to explain until I started typing it...

Threading is extremely useful when you have live updating components that have their own calculations or I/O to perform that are time consuming and/or blocking. Most user interfaces are done this way: they spawn on a different thread so that the user interface remains snappy while the background work is being done. It doesn't matter when the background thread picks up the new work, because the UI has acknowledged the input from the user, so the user now knows it's his/her turn to wait. Plus, most of the time the delay is so small that the user doesn't really notice it.

But keep in mind, that's only 2 threads, and the separation between UI and background work is a very easy distinction to make. From that point, it becomes exponentially more difficult to find where threading is possible and/or if it is even beneficial. Furthermore, the threading between the UI and the background processes isn't actually speeding up the work, it's just making the presentation to the user seem quicker.

Amdahl's law is exactly what this is all about. It looks complicated, but the basic idea is that you have a finite amount of time; put the work where you will see the most gain (ie. where the program spends most of it's time).

Most of the time, that's not through threading, but through optimizations for a specific architecture.

Makes sense... I admit my ignorance with programing. Jumped the gun redface.gif So if I understand correctly, this is why HSA is still going to require a decent cpu core?
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post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxToranachxx View Post

SectorNine50 as well, if that isn't the most true thing I have heard in the last 2 decades I don't know what it. Sad as it may be it sure is the truth. We can thank any society that bases our entire way of life around money which is in turn based off of (or used to be anyway) off a shiny totally useless rock... Well I guess its not totally useless. Gold plated stereo cables seem to be better though I have always wondered if copper wouldn't be a better choice for that due to electrical conductivity.

Didn't realize how applicable Amdahl's law was to everyday life until you mentioned this (I had always looked at it from the Computer Science perspective), but yes, I suppose it can effectively be applied to just about anything. I guess it just gives more weight to the mantra, "don't sweat the small stuff." redface.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

Makes sense... I admit my ignorance with programing. Jumped the gun redface.gif So if I understand correctly, this is why HSA is still going to require a decent cpu core?

I think that's why the misconceptions about threading run so rampant; it's such an obscure concept to those that have never had the opportunity to work with it themselves.

In regards to HSA, I haven't had the opportunity to play with it yet. However, from what I understand, from a programming perspective it is basically threading on steroids. The programmer is going to need to pick and choose what work should be run on the GPU, and then dispatch it. I believe the GPU should be able to work with the memory independently of the CPU, so I don't know that the CPU needs to be any beefier than normal.

Hopefully the hardware will advance to the point where the GPU becomes synonymous to a floating-point module, and based on what I see I think that's the end-goal.
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post #37 of 39
Quote:
Makes sense... I admit my ignorance with programing. Jumped the gun redface.gif So if I understand correctly, this is why HSA is still going to require a decent cpu core?

Yes, and also why AMD isn't abandoning "big cores" like people have been claiming for some time now. You will need a good, strong CPU to work alongside the GPU in HSA. CPU's are serial processors and latency-sensitive. HSA reduces latency between the communication of the LCU (latency compute unit, a la CPU) and the TPU (throughput compute unit, a la GPU) so the program can use whichever processor is more suited to a certain instruction when it has to.

Kaveri introduces the unified memory, allows the GPU to use pagable system memory from CPU pointers, and fully coherent memory between the CPU & GPU. Carrizo will introduce hardware-level integration of HSA and GPU graphics pre-emption.
post #38 of 39
Thread Starter 
lol, I just noticed that WCCFtech also picked up the article, apparently from this thread. Exact same pictures.
Check it out
post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxToranachxx View Post

JunkoXan I ove the binary code you put in though it was not anywhere near 2 mins to translate that lol. It is awesome to say the least!

well to some it does take 2 minutes, to others it may not, regardless it's a nice little puzzle. biggrin.gif
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