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Fans and Rads, I am confused. - Page 12

post #111 of 200
pepe, those arent scores. those the decibles. those are the decibles it was hitting when getting those temps.
and i really dont understand how 108% performance is less than 100% performance. whatever.
no i dont want your explanation. anyone telling me 100 is greater than 108 cant explain anything to me. i wont listen to it. you can refuse to accept 140 fans having the performance they do. martin isnt the be-all-end-all of fan testers. there are other competent people out there testing because martin hasnt. buy martin the fans and 140 radiators. then wait for 6 months or so. he will eventually get it done. he is busy with his life at the moment.
Edited by pc-illiterate - 1/15/14 at 6:46am
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post #112 of 200
The new socket/chipset is x99 and is tentatively called 2011-3. This will house the new up-to-8-core Haswell-E CPUs and runs DDR 4 RAM. Basically, we at long last have a replacement enthusiast chipset for the X79 that has been neglected for a long time. Well worth a few months wait I'd say.

For a silent build, I decided to go with 560's in pull-only using 120mm AP-15 fans with 120/140 adapters running directly off the 5v PSU rail. The pull-only makes dust removal extremely easy, and a 560 has 36% more surface area with the 120/140 adapters increasing fan air pressure, which is helpful at low speeds on thick rads. The case I chose was the SMH10 with pedestal for a total of 4x560x60 + 2x480x45 radiators, but I haven't bothered even hooking up the 480s yet since I am not pumping out enough watts to warrant it (the water has never gone above ambient).

Since you mentioned AP-15s, I'll note that from the factory a few of them will have a very quiet grumble when running at 5v; and if that bothers you and want it to go away, you can add a little lubricant.
post #113 of 200
shrouds on pull fans doesnt increase pressure. the fan has the same amount of sp. it now has a larger area to draw air through. the shroud eliminates the dead spot of the fan hub. and shroud benefit is fan/rad specific.
can you please point me to testing and results?

and i dont understand x79 being neglected. it has had 2 chips released for it, sb-e and ib-e. thats the same as the rest of the recent chipsets.
and you are also talking 'enthusiast' chipset.
Edited by pc-illiterate - 1/15/14 at 7:13am
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post #114 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

shrouds on pull fans doesnt increase pressure. the fan has the same amount of sp. it now has a larger area to draw air through. the shroud eliminates the dead spot of the fan hub. and shroud benefit is fan/rad specific.
can you please point me to testing and results?
The 120-140 adapter changes the cross-sectional area. This increases the pressure and decreases the flow rate given the same FPI and thickness versus a 480 radiator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

and i dont understand x79 being neglected. it has had 2 chips released for it, sb-e and ib-e. thats the same as the rest of the recent chipsets.
and you are also talking 'enthusiast' chipset.
Intel never even bothered to support TRIM on x79 RAID when they added it to newer chipsets.

The X chipsets are enthusiast, the Z chipsets are high-end mainstream. Given the quad-channel RAM, DDR4, and more PCIE bandwidth of X, I would suggest an X chipset over Z for a high-end build.
Edited by Electrocutor - 1/15/14 at 7:22am
post #115 of 200
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/15/radiator-shroud-testing-v2/3/

as i said, show me a link. i need to see it.
Edited by pc-illiterate - 1/15/14 at 7:19am
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post #116 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/15/radiator-shroud-testing-v2/3/
as i said, show me a link. i need to see it.

It's common sense, but since you keep linking shrouds I think maybe you're confused about what I'm saying because it has nothing to do with shrouds. I'll try to explain it better in more detail so you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Facts:
A 560 has 36% more cross-sectional area than a 480.
Increasing the rate of air flow through a radiator requires greater air pressure drop.
A fan running at a fixed speed has a fixed CFM without obstruction.

The fan moves the same volume of air, but with a 120/140 adapter, the air moving through the 480 radiator will be at a velocity 36% higher than the velocity of air moving through a 560 radiator because the 560 has 36% greater cross-sectional area. Since the fin design is identical with identical FPI between the 560 and 480, they have the same PQ curve. Given the P/Q curve for air pressure for that particular radiator design, moving at the slower speed will require a lesser amount of air pressure drop. This leaves a greater amount of air pressure from the fan to be used for exhaust pressure drop and increasing the rate of air flow across the whole system.
post #117 of 200
just stop. it doesnt get an increase in static pressure. there is less restriction not an increase in static pressure. this is not the same thing.
providing a link and saying its common sense isnt the same. post proof, because it doesnt make sense.

as martin said, "120mm fans on an adapter: This is a bit apples to oranges with the adapter, but it’s fairly surprising just how close 120mm fans perform to 140mm fans on a CFM per dbA ratio perspective. The 140mm fans do have some CFM per RPM advantage and seem to produce a slightly lower frequency tone, but their noise levels were pretty much the same. This makes some of the stronger performing 120mm fans a very viable option on 140mm radiators. I had really hoped the 140mm fans would be a huge benefit over 120s, but I’m just not finding that. There is a good sized advantage to the larger 140mm radiator and reduced restriction, but the gain is in the radiator frontal area, not the 140mm fan itself."

so just stop. and this is in push not pull. "your adapter is acting as a shroud helping the fan pull through less restriction." that<<< is common sense.

you also need to stop saying 480 and 560. its 120 and 140. we arent comparing radiator sizes but fan sizes on the same sized radiator.
Edited by pc-illiterate - 1/15/14 at 8:47am
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post #118 of 200
No, I was comparing radiators with the same 120mm fan from the very beginning. This is enough hijacking for me, though; sorry OP.
post #119 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Okay,what do you think would perform better?

- 120.1 rad with 120 fan
- 140.1 rad with 120 fan
- 140.1 rad with 140 fan

And I would assume a 10-20% increase for the 140 rad is actually a decrease in performance since it's 36% larger.

Due to the dead space behind the motor being smaller as a % of fan area, all other things being equal, the 140 would perform better at the same fps. And be careful with links..... linking to 2-3 year old fan tests is like linking to 2-3 year old CPU overclocking guides when talking about Haswell.....there's a whole new crop of 140mm fans today that won't be found in these old tests. Until we see actual tests on rads .... I did find one some months back but failed to bookmark it .... we can only speculate based upon performance testing that's been done on the big air coolers.

When I look at the older air cooler tests and see 120s dominating and then look at the new tests and see 140s taking the top 5 and 9 outta the top 11 positions, I don't think it's arguable that things have changed. And the tighter fin spacing of air coolers presents a tougher challenge in many respects. Based upon Martins rad testing, I expected to get 64% of the calculated heat load handled by my rads in push / pull .... I started out however with just push ....and I'm seeing 39C on my GPUs (twin 780s w/ 25% OC) w/ just (5) 140mm fans in push on 280 + 420 and Delta T is just 8.4C under Furmark. With those kinda temps, I'm having a hard tome justifying buying the other 5 fans.

In this awkward test however, A 140mm fan w/120mm mounting holes was swapped out in place of a 120 on the Thermaltake WATER2.0 Performer and he got the same performance from the 140 at 1200 rpm as he got from the 120mm at 2000 rpm....on a 120mm rad which blocked the outide 10mm all the way around....that just may be a testament to a crappy 120mm fan tho smile.gif

http://www.thinkcomputers.org/phanteks-ph-f140ts-140mm-cooling-fan-review/2/

On today's low fpi (10-12) rads, moderate thickness 930-60mm) it would seem the newer low rpm 140s do better ..... If using a tighter find spacing or bit thick Monsta, I thing a hi rpm 120 might be the better choice.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 1/15/14 at 10:16am
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post #120 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

pepe, those arent scores. those the decibles. those are the decibles it was hitting when getting those temps.

Well, if you are correct than my explanations were completely wrong.
Quote:
and i really dont understand how 108% performance is less than 100% performance.

WWhen you move from a 120.1 to a 120.2 you effectively increase your cooling power by 100%, you double your cooling power.
But the earlier math (with could be wrong) of moving from 120.1 to 140.1 would not increase cooling performance by 108%, it would increase it by 8%......understand?

.
Quote:
no i dont want your explanation. anyone telling me 100 is greater than 108 cant explain anything to me.

You are distorting what I wrote. It's not 100% versus 108%, it's 100% versus 8%.
Quote:
wont listen to it. you can refuse to accept 140 fans having the performance they do. martin isnt the be-all-end-all of fan testers. there are other competent people out there testing because martin hasnt. buy martin the fans and 140 radiators. then wait for 6 months or so. he will eventually get it done. he is busy with his life at the moment.

You don't need to defend Martin's life. I never attacked him. I merely stated that I take testing om other people with a grain of salt. That is my personal preference, nothing that can debated. If I say my favorite color is red, and you think blue looks better, it's not really open for debate. Those are merely personal choices..

Martin explains careully how he does his testing, thus offering his methods for scruteny. Others merely give us their results with no real way of examining their methods.

I just don't think the r&d, the engineering, and the choices are up to par on the 140 fans just yet.
Yes, bigger blades and smaller hub should make for more performance.
Everything else being equal, the 140 fans would be better, but everything else is not being equal.

Ma
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