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Fans and Rads, I am confused. - Page 13

post #121 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

Due to the dead space behind the motor being smaller as a % of fan area, all other things being equal, the 140 would perform better at the same fps.

I completely agree, the smaller hub and bigger blades would perform better, but all other things are not being equal. The popularity, the engineering, and r&d of the 140 fans are all inferior right now
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post #122 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

jack, some people just dont believe 140 rad will outperform a 120 rad. they either have been out of the loop too long to know these things or they just dont believe it. i had a guy try to tell me that a 2x 200 phobya with the good silverstone 180 fans would be beat by a 3x 120. the last they heard only a 120 fan had the power to cool a rad.
that would still depend on the fans wouldnt it? a 140 bgears bblaster puts out serious performance but its still a noisy fan. the chart i keep quoting that jack posted and is referencing again says the 140 fans are quieter and performing better.

Well that is common in the WC Arena ......

-Aluminum in any way shape or form will corrode your other components (scientifically impossible) .... before we get sidetracked bare (not anodized) aluminum may corrode but as the lesser noble metal it will be the "sacrificial anode" in the system and therefore actually protects other metals in the system from corrosion.
-Any dye or additive will gunk up your system
-Aurora Coolants will clog and fail within 48 hours
-Thick rads provide much better cooling
-Even the "1 fans worth if rad for each component cooled + 1 " rule of thumb only works with mid range cards ....certainly not with multiple 300 watt cards when a UT60 only gives ya 1/3 of that per 120mm

Sometimes these things were absolutely true at one point in time, sometimes they were never true and sometimes, while logic dictates things should have changed, many will be unwilling to accept a conclusion until it's actually borne out in testing. And in this instance, while the logic dictates that the 140s should do better, we have only seen it proven on the big air coolers. Now the fact that the 120s previously dominated and that now the 140's dominate with air coolers shows that things have changed..... have they changed enough .... well .... a lot will depend on how ya measure. Martin to my understanding measures only the cooling effect of the fins and not the shrouds..... while a 480 and a 420 have just about equal rad area, on a 60mm rad .... a 480 shroud will have 72k ish sq.mm of surface area whereas a 140 will have 67k ish ....a 7.5% advantage. Now that could be significant or not ..... if mounted between a PSU shroud and a case wall .... not likely .... but with moving air on both sides, probably.

We know that the 140s outperform the 120s head to head ..... but will (3) 140s outperform (4) 120s thermally ? ..... I'm thinking it's close...... all we can say for sure is they cost a lot less smile.gif .... $40 for the rad and $40 for another 2 fans ... I'm betting its perty close thermally ....... I don't see the 120s competing once acoustic are figured in tho.
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post #123 of 200
pepe
no i dont understand. you said

This means that the top scoring 140 performed 8% better than the best 120.
But of course it performs better, it's a bigger fan with bigger blades, and probably bigger motor too.
But increasing the fan superficy by 36% while getting 8% increase in performance is really an actual decrease in performance.

you said a 140 is a decrease. it cant be. you said yourself right there its an increase. it may only appear to be an 8% increase but people spend more money for that amount of an increase. if youre starting from scratch on a build, it makes sense to go with 140 over 120.

as far as other people testing, i was just pointing out others have tested and continue to publish their results. martin wont be. you either take what they said as actual or do testing yourself or just say nothing. martin wont be testing any time soon. so its actually pointless to bring up martin or say other results are meaningless.
this isnt to argue. its just pointing out what has been done and what wont be done. accept it or dont. its your choice.

im done with that conversation. i wont be saying anything else about it. it is pointless.
Edited by pc-illiterate - 1/15/14 at 11:27am
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post #124 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

[/SPOILER]

I see this table posted a lot for some reason. But what does it actually indicate?
Pretty much that if you put 140mm fans on an open air 140mm heatsink they will nearly always work better than 120mm fans. That should be no surprise. The fact that any 120mm fans at all are in the top group should be a surprise.

The significance is that only recently have the the 120mm fans begun to dominate..... these are 140mm fans mounted on 120mm mounting holes. I posted another link in another thread today where someone replaced a 2000 rpm 120mm fan on a 120mm rad with a 1200 rpm 140mm that had 120mm mounting holes on it.....now in that case the the outside 10mm of the fan was blowing against the shroud or out into space and not going thru the rad..... and yet it maintained the same temps going 800 rpm slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Well, if you are correct than my explanations were completely wrong.

He is absolutely correct .... those are decibel readings at specific thermal performance levels..... i.e. who is quietest at 25C


Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

I just don't think the r&d, the engineering, and the choices are up to par on the 140 fans just yet.
Yes, bigger blades and smaller hub should make for more performance.
Everything else being equal, the 140 fans would be better, but everything else is not being equal.

140mm fans didn't arrive yesterday, they been around for many many years .... Scythe has a new 140mm line coming out, Noiseblocker has a new 140mm line coming out. And three years ago even 18 months ago I would have agreed..... however .... 120s went from dominating 140s on air coolers and now the situation has reversed.... that is the single fact of most significance.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 1/15/14 at 12:10pm
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post #125 of 200
Just a small correction here.
A 140.3 rad will have a surface area of 588 cm square (14x14x3)
And a 120.4 rad wil have a surface area of 576 cm (12x12x4)
So the 140.3 rad effectively is 2.1% larger....essentially the same size.
But I'll bet a case of beer the 140.3 fan/rad would loose over a 120.4 fan/rad.
I'll be very intetested if someone ever tests this using the top performing fans for both 140 and 120.
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post #126 of 200
im betting its too close to care. the 140.3 rad wins for cost.
its the same with different radiator makes n models. they all perform within a few degrees of each other in most cases. it comes down basically to which company you want to give your money to.
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post #127 of 200
From post above ..... it's not just the fins that radiate heat

"while a 480 and a 420 have just about equal rad area, on a 60mm rad .... a 480 shroud will have 72k ish sq.mm of surface area whereas a 140 will have 67k ish ....a 7.5% advantage".

As an example..... I have a 280 + 420 .... just 5 fans in push @ 1200 rpm. My system produces a theoretical 792 watts..... My rads..... using Martins numbers provide 420 watts of cooling at Delta T of 10C .... so if the above isn't true, well then how the heck do I manage a delta T of just 8.4C with a 792 watt load with 420 watts of cooling ?

My assumption is .... I'm prolly only making about 680 watts at any point in time given what I'm pulling from the wall..... that means I am still cooling 93% more than my my rads are capable of (680 / 420 * 10.0 / 8.4) according to testing.... how is that happening ? ..... while radiation from blocks and backplates, tubes and fittings, radiator shrouds, MoBo heatsinks, etc is certainly helping ..... is it accounting for the entire 93 % .... I don't think so.

I keep reading that coolant temp doesn't change more than 0.5C thru a loop but measuring temps in and out, and if that's what peeps are seeing, maybe they should get 140mm rads smile.gif ...... the 420 is dropping temps 1.3C all by itself w/ fans at 1200 rpm.....and that stays constant from 1.5 to 2.1 gpm .

What I am getting at is there seems to be a lot of "rules of thumb" that get passed on as gospel .... the 0.5C total change across the loop being yet another one that I think has gone out of date. (I see 2.4 - 2.8 depending on pump speed response via PWM w/ fans at an inaudible 850 rpm). Im running a test now w/ GPU at stock speeds, fans at 1230 rpm..... GPUs are 40C, ambient is 21.8 ..... 420 is after the 780s .... 280 is after CPU and pump speed is 50% PWM or about 1.75 gpm

420 in is 32.2
420 out is 30.5
1.7C Delta T

280 in is 31.1
280 out is 30.1
1.0C Delta T

2.7 Delta T across the rads

Delta T ambient to Coolant is 8.3C

Pulling the pump speed up to 100% (2.25 gpm) brings the GPUs down to 38C

420 in is 32.0
420 out is 31.2
0.8C Delta T

280 in is 31.7
280 out is 31.0
0.7C Delta T

1.5C Delta across the rads

Delta T ambient to Coolant is 9.2C

In the end, I think the 120.4 versus 420.3 will be very darn close ..... the 140s advantage in rad area is more than offset by the 120s shroud area. .... I'm sure that the 420 cost will be cheaper and I'm sure that the 140s will be quieter.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 1/15/14 at 1:07pm
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post #128 of 200
For all it's worth, I think we are debating over very very small performance diferences.

Everyone raves about the superior performance of the Nexxos rads. But the difference with comparable rads of other makers is so extremely small that nobody but Martin would ever detect a significant difference in the real world.And same goes with the 30mm thick versus the 60mm thick Nexxos. The difference is so small, you won't likely notice it in your rig.

I like the Alphacool Nexxos rads because they are full copper, no brass, even the tubes. They have very low restriction, and very good build quality.

Same with fans. My GT-2150's have the best static pressure to noise ratio, and ver good voltage range. I just found out I can run them off the 3.3v wire with no problems. And they were a good deal at the time.

But the performance of these fans is so small, that most will never notice a difference with a run of the mill similar but cheaper Scythe Kaze fan.

And tho they have the same size the 120.4 rad would outperform the 140.3 one (I beleive). But the performance difference would likely go un-noticed to just about most of us.

I think the only noticeable difference would be in using P/P over single fans.

So to OP, I don't think it will matter much if you go with 120's or 140's. AP-15 fans, or something else. Thin rads will perform better at low speed, but the difference is too small to be noticed.

Me, I would worry more about push/pull, especially if you want low speed and dust filters.

And an other important aspect is rad placement and air flow direction. Just make sure all rads get fresh air and none are breathing warmed air from an other rad.
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post #129 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post


Me, I would worry more about push/pull, especially if you want low speed and dust filters.

/quote]

OK so with my rad choice (Nexxxos 480 x 4 60mm) and fan TBA, can you tell me what you meant by this. I think you meant that I should be more concerned about p, p, or p/p. In terms of the dust filter, did you mean having them sit on the bottom of my case and the top or everywhere. Sorry i am a beginner, and probably did not anticipate there to be such an emphasis on dust filters.

Thanks for the comments and advice.
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post #130 of 200
use fans in push and pull to overcome the restriction of filters and the low performance of running them at slow rpm.
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