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[KT] The First Liquid-Cooled Steam Machine: Digital Storm Bolt II - Page 17

post #161 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

You don't need 700W to run, reliably, a Titan. You simply don't. Nor you need above 500W to do so, not on mITX where you are limited to 1155 and 1150. People are running high end systems with their 450W SFX psu's without problems. I have no idea where you get such ideas...
Get USB sound?
Proven how? Where? By whom?
No, it isn't. Power usage is measured at the wall, and thus why you subtract efficiency to calculate what the psu is actually delivering to the system. A psu rated @ 500W means it can deliver up to 500W to the computer... and, obviously, will take more from the plug. Because the power usage has to be measured at the wall, you are doing calculations the wrong way.
What?! This comes from Hardocp, using a similar system of what you would use on a real mITX system:


And this are the measurements:

Note: this measurements were taken at the wall, which means that the psu was delivering to the system, accepting a 90% efficiency, around 360W. Even with a 450 or 500W psu you have plenty of power to spare. So, you can even overclock a little.
Thank you. This furthers the objective data published by everyone else. Basically, you loaded every single component of the computer at 110% (since Furmark and LINX create artificial loads that no other real usage will ever show)... annnnd, at the wall, measured barely above 400W. I bet that on normal usage such system wouldn't go above 380W... at the wall.
Proof to sustain that, please?
Okay, I was wrong. Hadn't had my coffee today, deeply apologize. We all have bad days, this was mine.

@ the efficiency rating, we actually both said the same exact thing, just differently...FYI.
post #162 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by frickfrock999 View Post

@Kip69

You headed to CES for us this year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavDigitalStorm View Post

Thank you guys for all the kind remarks. If you're are CES, come check out our system at Valve's and NVIDIA's booths!

I so wish I could go. Is it just me are is there a lot of super cool gear this year!?
Me? I am in Taiwanland. If you hear of anything you want from here, let me know and I will check it out for you.
 
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post #163 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

*snip*

Okay so, when Nvidia initially launched the Titan, you were required to supply an additional PCI molex thus, changing the 75w scheme to the PCI slot. Which means that I/we never actually tested this with a mini or anything other than a 2011. Which was/is a huge oversight so, I thank you, actually. I'm starting MITX testing on Friday.

Our sample drew @ 300w...320w-350w to be precise.

I failed to account for 2 things. 1) The samples came boosted and 2) The sample OCP was non-existent and thus, required more power.

In the grand scheme of things, the stock models only pull 250-300w...Ultimately topping out at 320w averages.

That being said, with 6 fans (I could do 8 on their current model), peripherals, a Titan, a 4770k and taking into account "boosting" + turbo, I still wouldn't use a 500w psu. With the fans included as well as the pump unit in that entire scenario, you're looking at +/= 50w-75w so while you DO come to about 380-450w total, you're not including the other components. Once you do, you roof it.

While I apologize for the initial misinformation...In the grand scheme of things, I stand by my point but, not the information initially provided.

I would still, even on an MITX machine, advice to any customer or, anyone for that matter, that a 500w PSU would be "fine and dandy" unless they were strictly on air...In which case, who cares? But, throw in a few water cooling "units" (Be it an H100 or w/e), fans etc...Negative, sir.
post #164 of 332
yep, after an intensive look-see, I would totally buy that as a stand alone case. It looks goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood! biggrin.gif
post #165 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

That being said, with 6 fans (I could do 8 on their current model)
What are you talking about here? The Bolt/Bolt 2? I see room for two 120mm fans on the rad in the Bolt 2, that's it. Definitely no room for 6-8 fans. IIRC the first Bolt had even less room for fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

With the fans included as well as the pump unit in that entire scenario, you're looking at +/= 50w-75w so while you DO come to about 380-450w total, you're not including the other components. Once you do, you roof it.

While I apologize for the initial misinformation...In the grand scheme of things, I stand by my point but, not the information initially provided.

I would still, even on an MITX machine, advice to any customer or, anyone for that matter, that a 500w PSU would be "fine and dandy" unless they were strictly on air...In which case, who cares? But, throw in a few water cooling "units" (Be it an H100 or w/e), fans etc...Negative, sir.
120mm fans typically draw 2 watts or less each, while the integrated pumps in CLCs also only use around 2W (pdf). A 240mm CLC like in the Bolt 2 isn't going to add more than 10W to the total system draw. I really don't know where you get this 50-75W extra. This is not a Caselabs with two dozen fans and dual D5s.

Time for coffee? tongue.gif
post #166 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtec View Post

What are you talking about here? The Bolt/Bolt 2? I see room for two 120mm fans on the rad in the Bolt 2, that's it. Definitely no room for 6-8 fans. IIRC the first Bolt had even less room for fans.
120mm fans typically draw 2 watts or less each, while the integrated pumps in CLCs also only use around 2W (pdf). A 240mm CLC like in the Bolt 2 isn't going to add more than 10W to the total system draw. I really don't know where you get this 50-75W extra. This is not a Caselabs with two dozen fans and dual D5s.

Time for coffee? tongue.gif

You could do a push/pull on the rad, which already has push included...Upgrade the PSU fan, yourself...Are many fan-based options, wattage per fan also completely depends on the fan.

Above/beyond that you haven't budgeted for any peripheral...Keyboard? Sound Card? SSD? SSD + HDD? BRD?

I also said included in the entire scenario. I'm including common use product. Such as a Keyboard/Mouse/SSD/BRD et al.

The pump/draw et al, is about 20w...However, again, you've missed counting for the peripheral/other hardware completely.

Doing the math by hand, I come out to 490w +/- 10, NOT including turbo and/or boost.

That's with common use product.

With 3 different PSU calculators, peripherals like keyboard/mouse/etc NOT included, an SSD and an HDD with quality ram included, I come out to 517w at full load without turbo and without boost...

So, again, I stand by my point and I had my coffee 30 minutes ago.
post #167 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

You could do a push/pull on the rad, which already has push included
Maybe, not clear if there's room for that. Still, that's +5W, at most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

...Upgrade the PSU fan, yourself...
Bolt/Bolt 2 use a 1U PSU, fan is 40mm... I mean, yeah, you probably could change it out to a 14,000 RPM screamer that pulls 10W, but why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

wattage per fan also completely depends on the fan.
It mainly depends on the fan speed (and static pressure, to a lesser extent). Find me an axial fan that runs at a reasonable speed (<2500RPM) and pulls over 3W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Above/beyond that you haven't budgeted for any peripheral...Keyboard?
Keyboard? Really? Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Sound Card? SSD? SSD + HDD? BRD?
These are all just a few watts each + you can't fit that many in an SFF like the Bolt + these existed in the test systems used in the reviews from which we're getting power consumption numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

The pump/draw et al, is about 20w...
I linked the PDF showing power draw of a CLC pump @2.1W, what more do you want? You're being stubbornly wrong at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

So, again, I stand by my point and I had my coffee 30 minutes ago.
Guess it's not helping you after all, then tongue.gif
post #168 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtec View Post

Maybe, not clear if there's room for that. Still, that's +5W, at most.
Bolt/Bolt 2 use a 1U PSU, fan is 40mm... I mean, yeah, you probably could change it out to a 14,000 RPM screamer that pulls 10W, but why?
It mainly depends on the fan speed (and static pressure, to a lesser extent). Find me an axial fan that runs at a reasonable speed (<2500RPM) and pulls over 3W.
Keyboard? Really? Lol.
These are all just a few watts each + you can't fit that many in an SFF like the Bolt + these existed in the test systems used in the reviews from which we're getting power consumption numbers.
I linked the PDF showing power draw of a CLC pump @2.1W, what more do you want? You're being stubbornly wrong at this point.
Guess it's not helping you after all, then tongue.gif

*Sigh*

So today, we are using Thermaltake's PSu calculator since, you clearly refuse to do this by hand and would rather insult me instead of doing this yourself.

Parts: - Let's take the storm...

Mini-ITX, 1150 4770k, 90% TDP is average - Boost disabled, 2 Sticks of DDR3, Nvidia GTX Titan, 1x IDE 7200RPM drive, 1x SSD, 1 Blu Ray internal (comes stock with storm) -- What else do we know?

Well there's an H80 and let's say 4 peripherals since, that's average. There's also a fan controller that we know of by fact.

Fans -- Well, we have 2, 2 high performance on the H80...Even Coolermaster R4's are now "high performance"...But, we'll stick to 4 LED fans as a safe average. Our "water cooling kit" is an H80 which, is fair.

At 90% load, I come in at 494w. 90% load. Let me screenshot it for you.

I repeat myself, this is 90% load, 4 USB peripherals, 4 LED fans, an H80, NO TURBO, NO BOOST.



Since you're going to pick a fight with me about the LED fans, even though they exist with OTHER LED's let's remove them and do 4 NORMAL fans.



Oh but, wait a second...What happens at FULL LOAD?

Well there Johnny, here's the kicker. At a 90% TDP which is average, we pull 536w.



God forbid I want to use an Orbweaver or a Black Widow...

Is there anything else I can help you with today? I believe I've now adequately proven my stance well beyond your ignorance.
post #169 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Okay so, when Nvidia initially launched the Titan, you were required to supply an additional PCI molex thus, changing the 75w scheme to the PCI slot. Which means that I/we never actually tested this with a mini or anything other than a 2011. Which was/is a huge oversight so, I thank you, actually. I'm starting MITX testing on Friday.

Our sample drew @ 300w...320w-350w to be precise.

I failed to account for 2 things. 1) The samples came boosted and 2) The sample OCP was non-existent and thus, required more power.

In the grand scheme of things, the stock models only pull 250-300w...Ultimately topping out at 320w averages.

That being said, with 6 fans (I could do 8 on their current model), peripherals, a Titan, a 4770k and taking into account "boosting" + turbo, I still wouldn't use a 500w psu. With the fans included as well as the pump unit in that entire scenario, you're looking at +/= 50w-75w so while you DO come to about 380-450w total, you're not including the other components. Once you do, you roof it.

While I apologize for the initial misinformation...In the grand scheme of things, I stand by my point but, not the information initially provided.

I would still, even on an MITX machine, advice to any customer or, anyone for that matter, that a 500w PSU would be "fine and dandy" unless they were strictly on air...In which case, who cares? But, throw in a few water cooling "units" (Be it an H100 or w/e), fans etc...Negative, sir.

But still I'm not sure how you calculate power draw. The Digital Storm rep said himself that the unit they sall with:

4770K @ 4.3ghz
GTX780 TI

Loaded with: Furmark + Linx (a 110% load on the whole system, as artificial as it gets since nobody runs such loads on their computers) aaaaand the power draw, at the wall, was 430W.

This gives as a natural power load for the computer itself of more or less 360W (430W to 400W when we remove the unnatural load from synthetic benchmarks, and 90% efficiency psu gets us 360W). So, there is plenty of power to overclock the system without any problems whatsoever. You could even overclock and run Furmark + Linx and have no problems with it.

Also, every single review I've seen state that the gtx780 TI uses more power than the Titan (20-50W depending on the review site). This means that if you have power to spare with a GTX780 TI... you have even more with a Titan.

Keep in mind that there are very few uses in real world scenarios that you will load at 100% every single component on your computer. You might load your cpu @ 100%, but chances are you won't load your gpu @ 100% at the same time, and viceversa. But even on those situations... Furmark + Linx, the system will hold its ground.

I totally understand that when you have the ability to put a more powerful psu in your system, its never a bad idea to do so because it gives you overhead, probably will make less noise, and in the chance you face a problem you will know that its not the psu unless its a lemon unit. But, when talking about SFF cases one needs to be realistic. In the case of the Bolt II, for instance, how many fans can you put in there? I think only 2. How many drives? Not many, not at all. So, systems that require small psu's are those that also make it impossible to put a lot of stuff into the case; just like the Compact Splash... many users have their 4770K + high-end gpu (R9 290X, Titan, you name it) on a 450W sfx psu everything on water... no problems. And also, those cases will limit the overclock you can get by their sheer size and motherboard (not likely you will get the same overclock on a full ATX ROG board... than on a tiny mITX one, right? biggrin.gif ). So, its not like you have problems with a small case.

And thats not to say I would have used a more powerful psu on my NCASE M1 had I gotten the chance (there was nothing better nor more powerful than the 450W SFX psu I put there), but its not like I need it, or (probably) ever will.
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post #170 of 332
That is such a nice case, but they really need to sell it separately. thumb.gif
    
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