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[CHW] Mantle in BF4 up to 45% more performance - Page 17  

post #161 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

It definitely isn't that simple for nvidia. Actually this whole "anyone can adapt to mantle" is a bit fishy, like a bait almost. If nvidia would abide to it and develop a similar layer for geforce cards, there is no guarantee developers would use it, they are using the GCN one because it is closely related to console code.This doesn't apply to nvidia. By adopting mantle, Nvidia could find themselves in a position of helping mantle adoption to proliferate and at the same time it would be mostly AMD reaping the optimization benefits. Nvidia will not support mantle, it will actively fight it and push hard towards the area AMD's console advantage is annulled- PC exclusives.

Not simple... yeap you've got that right. Can they just code their own api and push it to market? How much would it cost them to buy that influence from the whole of the gaming industry? Could they even do it in a time frame that doesn't put them back years after Mantle's adoption has matured?


Nvidia sort of put themselves into this position by taking a huge money settlement whilst losing out on the x86 license. That decision has really put them behind the eight ball now. No cpu license, no way to compete as the industry is moving to a single chip design. Mantle is the culmination of that influence brought upon by the ability to produce and secure single chip solutions for the console market. Nvidia could not fight and win back the consoles even if they wanted to without a cpu license. And then with AMD moving int the SOC market...

Mantle is just the start of things to come. I'm actually sort of concerned for Nvidia's future. Their combining of Denver and Maxwell just wreaks of desperation to get into the me too category.
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post #162 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Not relevant to the topic? aren't we talking about whether or not the Mantle demo was running a Kaveri APU?

The truth of the matter is that:

* AMD didn't, not once, talk about system specs when talking about the whole Mantle "up to" 45% performance improvement.
* The demo had an average frame rate of ~100 FPS, and not that long ago Kaveri was seen running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings). It doesn't add up.
No, your comment wasn't about about that.
1st you didn't know where the 45% came from.
"You can't say that, we don't know that."
Clearly you had no idea what the slide was referring to. So I pointed it to you.
Now you claim benchmark result that havent' been shown. To press deck that more then likely wasn't suppose to be released yet for results that you can't substantiate from a retail release.
Which is why I say, dem words.

Look, I understand that you want to take that with a grain a salt but it's another thing when you want to conspire theories and don't understand why we don't see eye to eye.

thumb.gif
post #163 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

Why is anyone even complaining about this? Its a free boost of performance for the consumer. If it's 20000% or 2%, who cares, it's FREE. I'm not paying for it, are any of you? It's pretty clear that many of the naysayers here are angry that the 780 they bought for bf4 won't be getting this FREE performance boost. I ask them though; does mantle make direct x perform worse? no? Then why complain? I think everyone should let Louis C.K. hammer in a little bit of perspective here with the statement "How quickly the world owes him something he knew existed only ten seconds ago". No one was even expecting mantle. None of you even knew it existed before gpu14. Honestly, take a look in the mirror and try to think about the true reason you are complaining; I have my doubts that it's Mantles performance or even AMD. I personally believe it's just the brain worrying that it made a wrong choice. There are some great papers written about the downsides of choice.

If mantle does in fact relieve cpu bottlenecks (for the most part) that is amazing! People looking to get the most out of games will no longer have to buy $200< cpu's. They can spend their money on what matters for the graphics which is the graphics card. What I'm saying is that people here often forget that the average gamer isn't using a 4930k's... OCN does not contain the average gamer. Mantle is HUGE if it does in fact remove cpu bottleneck, this will be massive for the majority that are using old or low end/power intel cpu's or AMD cpu's (in single threaded scenarios) which is what they should be worrying about. People using this hardware can now just toss in a nice video card and be on their way playing games with all the eye candy advantages of PC without having to spend thousands of dollars on an overkill PC.


Well well is this thread not going to end on the Mantelpiece biggrin.gif And I like the above thumb.gif
post #164 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

No, your comment wasn't about about that.
1st you didn't know where the 45% came from.
"You can't say that, we don't know that."
Clearly you had no idea what the slide was referring to. So I pointed it to you.

So after all this was a complete misunderstanding doh.gif.

I wasn't talking about the 45% performance increase at all (I think at this point we have all seen that slide), I was actually talking about your comment:
Quote:
"Another thing, that 45% wasn't talking about GPU it was talking about Kevari so lets keep that in mind."

http://www.overclock.net/t/1456947/chw-mantle-in-bf4-up-to-45-more-performance/130#post_21533836

I don't know where you got that from, AMD didn't mention system specs at all yesterday when showing the Mantle demo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

Now you claim benchmark result that havent' been shown. To press deck that more then likely wasn't suppose to be released yet for results that you can't substantiate from a retail release.
Which is why I say, dem words.

Look, I understand that you want to take that with a grain a salt but it's another thing when you want to conspire theories and don't understand why we don't see eye to eye.

thumb.gif

Benchmarks results that haven't been shown!? the FPS counter was there the whole time in the demo, the average was ~100 FPS.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los

And just in case if you're talking about my comments regarding Kaveri running BF4 at medium settings at ~30 FPS here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RY94zGda4
Edited by SlackerITGuy - 1/7/14 at 10:47am
post #165 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

So after all this was a complete misunderstanding doh.gif.

I wasn't talking about the 45% performance increase at all (I think at this point we have all seen that slide), I was actually talking about your comment:


http://www.overclock.net/t/1456947/chw-mantle-in-bf4-up-to-45-more-performance/130#post_21533836

I don't know where you got that from, AMD didn't mention system specs at all yesterday when showing the Mantle demo.
Benchmarks results that haven't been shown!? the FPS counter was there the whole time in the demo, the average was ~100 FPS.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los

And just in case if you're talking about my comments regarding Kaveri running BF4 at medium settings at ~30 FPS here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RY94zGda4

This is getting hilarious. Did you actually listen to the video? Lets recap that video.
"There we can see AMD Kaveri's performance demo in image editing and playing Battlefield 4 (without Mantle). AMD will shipped it in Q1 2014."
In the video he clearly states there is no optimizations from 1:20 to 1:35. It does not have mantle. All that video does is showcase Kaveri at roughly 30 FPS (which to me is impressive for a SOC) which is why I said this is not relevant to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

Not simple... yeap you've got that right. Can they just code their own api and push it to market? How much would it cost them to buy that influence from the whole of the gaming industry? Could they even do it in a time frame that doesn't put them back years after Mantle's adoption has matured?


Nvidia sort of put themselves into this position by taking a huge money settlement whilst losing out on the x86 license. That decision has really put them behind the eight ball now. No cpu license, no way to compete as the industry is moving to a single chip design. Mantle is the culmination of that influence brought upon by the ability to produce and secure single chip solutions for the console market. Nvidia could not fight and win back the consoles even if they wanted to without a cpu license. And then with AMD moving int the SOC market...

Mantle is just the start of things to come. I'm actually sort of concerned for Nvidia's future. Their combining of Denver and Maxwell just wreaks of desperation to get into the me too category.
Well said thumb.gif
Edited by EastCoast - 1/7/14 at 10:55am
post #166 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

This is getting hilarious. Did you actually listen to the video? Lets recap that video.
"There we can see AMD Kaveri's performance demo in image editing and playing Battlefield 4 (without Mantle). AMD will shipped it in Q1 2014."
In the video he clearly states there is no from 1:20 to 1:35. It does not have mantle. All that video does is showcase Kaveri at roughly 30 FPS (which to me is impressive for a SOC) which is why I said this is not relevant to this thread.

Dude,

Before I go on with my post, just answer me this:

Did or did you not say that the 45% performance increase was when using a Kaveri APU?

That's all I want to know.
post #167 of 365
But YOU said the 45% was BS and you referred to a vid that you didn't watch which stated this is w/o Mantle.


ANyways, so whats the math going from 30fps to 100fps anyways?
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post #168 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

But YOU said the 45% was BS and you referred to a vid that you didn't watch which stated this is w/o Mantle.


ANyways, so whats the math going from 30fps to 100fps anyways?

At no point did I say the 45% was BS, what I did say was that the Mantle demo shown yesterday was definitely not running a Kaveri APU since the frame rate was consistently in the ~100 FPS range, and the performance numbers we got during the APU13 conference was that Kaveri was capable of running BF4 (without Mantle) at ~30 FPS (Medium settings - 1080p), add 45% to 30 FPS and you get ~43 FPS.
post #169 of 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Not that simple, yes Mantle is being developed with the necessary abstraction to support other architectures/future architectures, but it's not "if NVIDIA wanted they could use Mantle", it's not like that at all.

At this moment nothing coming from AMD says they wouldn't allow Nvidia to use it, if Nvidia wanted. However, Nvidia recently announced their own objectives with new development programs, so I doubt Nvidia is going to ask to use it.

Which is completely different than Nvidia being locked out of Mantle, it is purely a business decision, not a technical matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Yes and this would allow AMD to cripple the performance of Nvidia GPUs if they wanted.

Seriously Alatar? I know you are the most anti-AMD person I have ever met, but even this is a new low for you. Why do you even bother to comment in AMD threads? Seriously, I am actually asking. I don't think I am the only person who is wondering this right now, especially after such a comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

I don't know...from what they've released thus far I think Mantles main benefits are going to be CPU and GPU interaction...with more goodies for the the CPU. It all revolves around that unified pipeline. I'd love to get some low level details on it. I think Mantle has the chance to be revolutionary here...IF it works and people adopt it and use it.
Mantle is technically not limited to any specific hardware, but it could just as well be. Each GPU should need its own version of Mantle and I doubt AMD will let Nvidia use it...not without horrible licensing fees that Nvidia would never agree to. This also makes each architecture require its own Mantle development project...another bar holding it back.

Kind of going back to my first statement in this post...

Nothing coming from AMD has said Nvidia, or Intel, couldn't get on-board with Mantle. In fact everything Mantle has shown to be is completely open...

Open to developers to use at their will.
Open on which architecture it can be used on.

We don't even know if AMD would want to charge a licensing fee to Nvidia, or if they did what it would look like. Statements like yours a pure speculation based of a percieved hate between AMD and Nvida.
    
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post #170 of 365
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Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post


Kind of going back to my first statement in this post...

Nothing coming from AMD has said Nvidia, or Intel, couldn't get on-board with Mantle. In fact everything Mantle has shown to be is completely open...

Open to developers to use at their will.
Open on which architecture it can be used on.

We don't even know if AMD would want to charge a licensing fee to Nvidia, or if they did what it would look like. Statements like yours a pure speculation based of a percieved hate between AMD and Nvida.

It is a lot less speculative to think that AMD will want to charge a license fee to use Mantle...they've only spent a couple years and good deal of R&D on it. They are giving out free to Game and Graphic Engine Developers because it should in theory prompt more people to buy AMD GPUs if more games support it (Just like PhysX from Nvidia), but we don't know anything about Hardware developers yet. It might be possible...I just don't see the shareholders of the company allowing it. It would go against every once of history and expectation for AMD to just give it to the world. And of course we still don't know if the world will even want it if they did give it away.
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