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[TR] Nvidia responds to AMD's ''free sync'' demo - Page 18  

post #171 of 321
Did I miss something? All AMD are showing is that it is possible to have a frame time sync with current hardware in some situations, specifically the laptop demo they gave. This could conceivably also help with power saving in the laptop as the screen would only need to refresh when the image changes.

Then they are saying that if it is decided to include something in a future spec it will be possible for everyone to use a similar system to nVidia's G-sync. Sounds like a good thing to me.

I can't see where they are promising a product, in fact the opposite, I seem to remember them stating that they have no immediate plans to productize this concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

but GDDR5 was not invented by AMD.

No, but they were the first to sell a consumer product with it:
Quote:
On June 25, 2008, AMD became the first company to ship products using GDDR5 memory with its Radeon HD 4870 video card series, incorporating Qimonda's 512 Mbit memory modules at 3.6 Gbit/s bandwidth.
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post #172 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Did I miss something? All AMD are showing is that it is possible to have a frame time sync with current hardware in some situations, specifically the laptop demo they gave. This could conceivably also help with power saving in the laptop as the screen would only need to refresh when the image changes.

Then they are saying that if it is decided to include something in a future spec it will be possible for everyone to use a similar system to nVidia's G-sync. Sounds like a good thing to me.

I can't see where they are promising a product, in fact the opposite, I seem to remember them stating that they have no immediate plans to productize this concept.


The part you are missing is that for Desktop Monitors, Free-sync still requires a controller board, even if DP 1.3 was finalized today and included support for Vblank.

There "might' be a way to worm around the DP 1.3 requirement and use a DP 1.2 connection. However, that still requires a controller board in the monitor.

If Monitor manufacturers were already putting the required boards in monitors, this wouldn't even be an argument. AMD would be providing a free solution for Desktop Monitors. But as it stands now, the board doesn't even exist and VBlank is not required for DP 1.3 to make certification.

Free-sync is not some great idea to help save power on laptop's. It is AMD's attempt at a counter to G-sync. And it is failing hard.
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post #173 of 321
See, I'm just going off the original Anand article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clazman55 View Post

The part you are missing is that for Desktop Monitors, Free-sync still requires a controller board, even if DP 1.3 was finalized today and included support for Vblank.

There "might' be a way to worm around the DP 1.3 requirement and use a DP 1.2 connection. However, that still requires a controller board in the monitor.

Yes, it requires monitors to support Vblank. It is in the current DP spec but not mandatory, hence why it isn't used. However AMD are pushing for it to be included in the DP1.3. I know that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anand 
The GPU’s display engine needs to support it, as do the panel and display hardware itself. If all of the components support this spec however, then you can get what appears to be the equivalent of G-Sync without any extra hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clazman55 View Post

Free-sync is not some great idea to help save power on laptop's. It is AMD's attempt at a counter to G-sync. And it is failing hard.

Power saving is one reason why it is being done:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anand 
According to AMD, there’s been a push to bring variable refresh rate display panels to mobile for a while now in hopes of reducing power consumption (refreshing a display before new content is available wastes power, sort of the same reason we have panel self refresh displays).

And failing hard? It is a concept, and a decent one, that would allow everyone access to it based off an already existing, but not mandatory, standard. How is that failing?
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post #174 of 321
My response to both Nvidia and AMD: Give it up guys, seriously. Unless you both can magically get your cards to get no less than 240 + FPS for every game on the market right now with all settings (card(s) and game) maxed out, then this technology will fail miserably. Mark my words.

There was an article posted right after the announcement of GSync about the reaction times of Pro Gamers with variable sync enabled. They either over compensated or under compensated for all of their reactions, due to the refresh rate fluctuations.

When refresh rates fluctuate, there is no longer an even and steady flow of information your mind can properly predict and react to. Monitor refresh rates are not the same as gaming's frames per second. FPS rates always fluctuate, but refresh rates stay the same. Your eyes gets a set and specific number of frames flashed at it, no matter what the game's FPS rate is. This is how we normally interact/face with gaming.

With GSync/Free Sync and fluctuating refresh rates, the average person will fall short of compensating correctly, thus making a normally pleasurable gaming experience miserable.

Quit while you're ahead guys... at least AMD's solution is free, given your future monitor's capabilities.
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post #175 of 321
Here read this dont feel like pasting it and such.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457018/anandtech-amd-freesync/310#post_21550134

But just the short over view Free-sync isn't an item it is an idea.
post #176 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG32 View Post

With GSync/Free Sync and fluctuating refresh rates, the average person will fall short of compensating correctly, thus making a normally pleasurable gaming experience miserable.

If the refresh rate is 60 hz and the frame rate is 40 fps, 20 frames presented by the display is outdated junk plus all the other 40 frames have their timing messed up by having to accomodate 20 frames of junk data. How is that in any way better than 1 refresh per frame?
post #177 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilon View Post

If the refresh rate is 60 hz and the frame rate is 40 fps, 20 frames presented by the display is outdated junk plus all the other 40 frames have their timing messed up by having to accomodate 20 frames of junk data. How is that in any way better than 1 refresh per frame?

Here's the problem: You will not sustain 40 FPS at a constant rate. This will fluctuate, guaranteed. With refresh rate syncing, your monitor will adjust it's refresh rate to the game's FPS rate. This will cause a fluctuation in the steady flow of information you're accustomed to, thus causing over/under compensation. Those extra 20 frames out of 60 are not junk, they become repeats of other frames, but you're receiving them all at a constant rate of 60 flashes a second.

Everything you game with has a type of refresh rate and you're adjusted to it all. Start changing one of these on the fly and the whole system goes out of whack. Does that make sense?
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post #178 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG32 View Post

Here's the problem: You will not sustain 40 FPS at a constant rate. This will fluctuate, guaranteed. With refresh rate syncing, your monitor will adjust it's refresh rate to the game's FPS rate. This will cause a fluctuation in the steady flow of information you're accustomed to, thus causing over/under compensation. Those extra 20 frames out of 60 are not junk, they become repeats of other frames, but you're receiving them all at a constant rate of 60 flashes a second.

Everything you game with has a type of refresh rate and you're adjusted to it all. Start changing one of these on the fly and the whole system goes out of whack. Does that make sense?

Hadn't considered this... makes a lot of sense. thumb.gif
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post #179 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG32 View Post

Here's the problem: You will not sustain 40 FPS at a constant rate. This will fluctuate, guaranteed. With refresh rate syncing, your monitor will adjust it's refresh rate to the game's FPS rate. This will cause a fluctuation in the steady flow of information you're accustomed to, thus causing over/under compensation. Those extra 20 frames out of 60 are not junk, they become repeats of other frames, but you're receiving them all at a constant rate of 60 flashes a second.

Everything you game with has a type of refresh rate and you're adjusted to it all. Start changing one of these on the fly and the whole system goes out of whack. Does that make sense?

No, having a frame repeated twice every few frames is what throws off the illusion of smooth motion. A sporadically repeated frame is worse than no frame. This is why the 30fps/60fps @ 60hz is the golden target for console game developers.



Vsync off isn't that much better either. Tearing just means that a portion of the frame is junk compared to a whole frame being junk.

Edit: Actually tearing is just the most obvious artifact from desynchronized refreshes. Most of the frames will have a varying amount of the upper portion being 16.6 ms ahead of the lower portion on a 60 Hz monitor.
Edited by Exilon - 1/9/14 at 3:47pm
post #180 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilon View Post

No, having a frame repeated twice every few frames is what throws off the illusion of smooth motion. A sporadically repeated frame is worse than no frame. This is why the 30fps/60fps @ 60hz is the golden target for console game developers.



Vsync off isn't that much better either. Tearing just means that a portion of the frame is junk compared to a whole frame being junk.

Alright, great. That's where it either becomes a driver problem and/or a monitor response time issue. Everything looks great on paper, but both Nvidia and AMD have had their fair share of driver problems with how to eliminate tearing. With what I've explained prior, that is not the solution.

If a gamer has a system that can not perform, that's not anyone else's problem but their's alone. If you want to compensate for a poor performing system, then turn down your monitor's refresh rate below your lowest FPS and enable VSync. Other than that, you're stuck with what you can afford, basically. Purchasing another graphics card, a faster processor, a SSD, faster speed and lower timed memory, and/or a higher refresh rate and response time monitor are your other options.

There's no easy solution to fix these problems, but constantly adjusting your monitor's refresh rate on the fly doesn't cut it at all. It causes varied reactions times due to the lack of a consistent flow of information, no matter if "junk" is contained or not. Enough of the "snake oil" already...lol

/end for me on this topic
Edited by MacG32 - 1/9/14 at 4:06pm
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