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Will triple triple 40mm rads cool i7 + GTX670 ? - Page 3

post #21 of 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Wut?

No.

The 40mm fans he is talking about are barely chipset fans..He is not talking about 40mm thick fans,he is talking about...




That kind of fan.

Personally,I think asking small rads with that kind of pathetic airflow will struggle.....those 3 rads dont even make a full 240 in surface area,coupled with those simply useless fans=not a pretty picture

Well, I could always do fans in push and pull, but that would be 18 40mm fans...
There's some 20mm thick 40mm fans for $2 more, but I don't think it would make much of a difference.
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post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLAWNOOB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

One of these Black Ice rads with some slim Gelid or CoolerMaster fans would give you right around the 40mm thickness you wanted

Thanks but no thanks. The inlet and outlets sticks out. The multi port EX240 looks like it would do the job, but my EX360 measures 30mm thick and the outter cover can't be removed.

Regardless of what I'm going to use for cooling, I'll stick a few of these blowers inside my box to make sure the VRMs and RAM runs cool: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119145

Thickness is irrelevant,frontal surface area is king here,the thinner 240 will do a far better job than 3 of those 40mm triples,mainly as the fan hub on the 40mm fans takes up 60% (roughly) of the fan size,the deadspot behind the fan will be equal to this...thats 50-60% of the surface are behind each fan getting next to no airflow.
Edited by B NEGATIVE - 1/12/14 at 10:00am
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post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Wut?

No.

The 40mm fans he is talking about are barely chipset fans..He is not talking about 40mm thick fans,he is talking about...




That kind of fan.

Personally,I think asking small rads with that kind of pathetic airflow will struggle.....those 3 rads dont even make a full 240 in surface area,coupled with those simply useless fans=not a pretty picture
Rubbish.

You can go passive,just not with those rads.
LOL!
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post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLAWNOOB View Post

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll go for passive slim 240 or 360 rads instead.

Nope. The standard radiators used on computers are designed to have some forced airflow through them. So, if you made them passive they would never work. Ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Sure they can those rad's are pretty dam good people cooled their Xbox360 and PS3's with a single 2x40mm and those are powerhog so yes you can. (with a single one your temps would suck hard but with 3 you'll be fine)
I have 2 2x40mm rads and they are great they are great thumb.gif

Not only they aren't great, they are pretty bad. And of course you could cool the Xbox 360 and the PS3 with a small radiator, because:

a) Their chip surface area is huuuuge (around 500 mm ^2 for the PS3. At 200W its as easy as it gets to cool it down).

b) They had a pretty high operating temperature (at least 85ºC on the PS3).

It seems to me you are confusing stuff. Its not the same to cool 200W from a 500mm^2, than to cool the same 200W from 250mm^2. The heat is the same, yes, but temperature on the processor will be far higher on the system with the smaller area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

I7 2630QM and a HD7850 I'm using Papst 6000RPM fans but I have them running at 1800RPM otherwise they'll make sound.
Here is a look at a person cooling his I7 with a single of those 2x40mm http://www.overclock.net/t/1332383/most-powerful-nes-computer
Since you have 3x 3x40mm you'll be just fine actually that is some capacity and people saying they are equiv to a 120mm rad are just plain wrong the 3x40mm rads are way more capable however they are more restrictive.


That is at the wall so let's say they have the worst power system and are only 70% eff 0,7 * 180 = ~125J/s for the gpu, cpu and memory.
That can be cooled with a single 2x40mm while he is looking into 3x 3x40mm and those rads are also about 1cm thicker than the 2x40mm I'm talking about (the 2x40 while being listed as 40mm thick it actually only has 2,5+/- cm of fins.

I'm not wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm completely right.

Surface with 3 x 3x40m rad. 120x40 (mm) = 4800mm^2. x3 = 14400 mm ^2.
Surface with 1 x 120mm rad. 120x120 = 14400 mm^2.

So, the surface is EXACTLY the same on both configurations (3 x triple 40mm rads VS 1 x single 120mm rad). 1 x 120mm fan is a hell of a lot more efficient than 9 x 40mm fan, and thus at the same noise the performance of the single 120mm rad will be MILES, miles ahead. Like a lot of miles ahead.

Also, the system you were using is terribly different from the one the op plants to use. Why?

a) You are using a laptop-based cpu, against the standard desktop one of the op. Why is this relevant? For 2 reasons. First, your cpu's tdp was 45W and, second, the Tjunction is 100ºC. Compare this to the fact that desktop processors take more power than 45W and have a lower max temperature... and you have it all.

b) Your system used less power than the one the OP is talking about.

All in all, not only is your system less power hungry, it also allows for higher operating temperatures (on the cpu). This is terribly important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Rule of thumb is 120mm of rad space per component plus an additional 120mm rad on top of that. And that's with fans on the radiators. I think 240mm passive would give you worse temps than passive air cooling.

My recommendation is to get a low profile CPU heatsink and an aftermarket GPU cool and run them both passive then use a a few fans for intake and exhaust to give good airflow across the heatsinks

This rule of thumb never made any sense at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Yeah so what are you getting at? Let's say his i7 peaks at 150W and his 670 peaks at 200W those are both exaggerated numbers and the peak will be lower and the average load will be way lower but stay with me. 350W can certainly be removed by those 3 radiators with some low rpm fans. If a single 2x40mm with a bit faster fans can extract enough heat to keep a xbox360 cool enough to run, then 3 3x40mm radiators with slower fans can certainly keep the i7 and the GTX670 cool.
That 120mm rad per 150W is a rule of thumb for keeping the delta temp low but it isn't because the system won't cope with it unless you live in a 60 degrees Celsius ambient environment.

Well I said 4,5x because you said the i7 + GTX670 does put out more than a Xbox360 or PS3 which is of course correct but since we have 4,5 times the radiator surface aka "relative cooling capacity" than was needed to cool the Xbox360 and PS3 therefore you are indirectly implying the i7 + GTX670 put out more than 4,5x the heat output of a Xbox360 or a PS4.


All that I'm really supporting here is that those radiators can easily keep those components cool and I actually think they could with quite a low delta temp.

The fact is that they can't, not easily. This are the temperatures people get with a similar system and 1 x 120mm radiator:

-Up to 65ºC on the hottest core with a slight overclock while playing BF3 on a 3570k.

BUT, this is with:

a) The best 120mm radiator on the market.
b) Push 'n' pull solution.

For instance a GT AP-15 (Gentle Typhoon 1850 rpm model) has a max airflow of around 60 cfm, whereas a 4.000 rpm 40mm papst fan has... 3.5 cfm :/ Even if you have 9 of those tiny fans, you would have a fraction of the airflow the 120mm fan gets... at more than double the rpm.

So, again, nope, you can't get any decent performance with small tiny fans, unless noise ain't a problem and you go with +10K rpm fans.
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post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Nope. The standard radiators used on computers are designed to have some forced airflow through them. So, if you made them passive they would never work. Ever.
Not only they aren't great, they are pretty bad. And of course you could cool the Xbox 360 and the PS3 with a small radiator, because:

a) Their chip surface area is huuuuge (around 500 mm ^2 for the PS3. At 200W its as easy as it gets to cool it down).

b) They had a pretty high operating temperature (at least 85ºC on the PS3).

It seems to me you are confusing stuff. Its not the same to cool 200W from a 500mm^2, than to cool the same 200W from 250mm^2. The heat is the same, yes, but temperature on the processor will be far higher on the system with the smaller area.
I'm not wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm completely right.

Surface with 3 x 3x40m rad. 120x40 (mm) = 4800mm^2. x3 = 14400 mm ^2.
Surface with 1 x 120mm rad. 120x120 = 14400 mm^2.

So, the surface is EXACTLY the same on both configurations (3 x triple 40mm rads VS 1 x single 120mm rad). 1 x 120mm fan is a hell of a lot more efficient than 9 x 40mm fan, and thus at the same noise the performance of the single 120mm rad will be MILES, miles ahead. Like a lot of miles ahead.

Also, the system you were using is terribly different from the one the op plants to use. Why?

a) You are using a laptop-based cpu, against the standard desktop one of the op. Why is this relevant? For 2 reasons. First, your cpu's tdp was 45W and, second, the Tjunction is 100ºC. Compare this to the fact that desktop processors take more power than 45W and have a lower max temperature... and you have it all.

b) Your system used less power than the one the OP is talking about.

All in all, not only is your system less power hungry, it also allows for higher operating temperatures (on the cpu). This is terribly important.
This rule of thumb never made any sense at all.
The fact is that they can't, not easily. This are the temperatures people get with a similar system and 1 x 120mm radiator:

-Up to 65ºC on the hottest core with a slight overclock while playing BF3 on a 3570k.

BUT, this is with:

a) The best 120mm radiator on the market.
b) Push 'n' pull solution.

For instance a GT AP-15 (Gentle Typhoon 1850 rpm model) has a max airflow of around 60 cfm, whereas a 4.000 rpm 40mm papst fan has... 3.5 cfm :/ Even if you have 9 of those tiny fans, you would have a fraction of the airflow the 120mm fan gets... at more than double the rpm.

So, again, nope, you can't get any decent performance with small tiny fans, unless noise ain't a problem and you go with +10K rpm fans.
The i7 has a heatspreader and the open die of the 670 isn't so small that you can't cool it.

And indeed the operating temp was quite high we are however talking about 4,5 times more surface area.
Since you haven't had these tiny radiators yourself I can assure you that they are more effective per surface area than the aluminium with brass chamber radiators you are most likely thinking of. If I can cool a 150W system with 2 of those rad's while getting decent temps I don't see why he can't run 3 slightly larger rad's to cool a 350W system.
That claim about higher operating temps is bogus the shutdown temperature on both is 105 degrees Celsius or so it is just that laptops are more likely to run hot but if you didn't know it already the i7 silicon on mobile is the same as the one hiding under the ihs of the desktop chip. Big whoop they use the same microcode actually.

9 thicker slower running 40mm fans will move more air than a 120mm slow running fan this might sound sound incorrect since you love more fan blade surface since you have your motor in the middle 9x rather than only ones but the 40mm fans are a lot thicker. Also you clearly have no idea how sound works more fans doesn't mean the noise gets louder and it might actually reduce noise.

Now I agree that just going with some 240mm rad is the easiest to go but claiming those rad's can't keep 350W cool is just stupid and only goes if you need a 20C or lower delta temp.
post #26 of 30
I use a dual 40mm on my i5 3570k. Keeps temps near the stock intel heat sink. Check threads I started to see pictures and temps.
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

The i7 has a heatspreader and the open die of the 670 isn't so small that you can't cool it.

And indeed the operating temp was quite high we are however talking about 4,5 times more surface area.
Since you haven't had these tiny radiators yourself I can assure you that they are more effective per surface area than the aluminium with brass chamber radiators you are most likely thinking of. If I can cool a 150W system with 2 of those rad's while getting decent temps I don't see why he can't run 3 slightly larger rad's to cool a 350W system.
That claim about higher operating temps is bogus the shutdown temperature on both is 105 degrees Celsius or so it is just that laptops are more likely to run hot but if you didn't know it already the i7 silicon on mobile is the same as the one hiding under the ihs of the desktop chip. Big whoop they use the same microcode actually.

9 thicker slower running 40mm fans will move more air than a 120mm slow running fan this might sound sound incorrect since you love more fan blade surface since you have your motor in the middle 9x rather than only ones but the 40mm fans are a lot thicker. Also you clearly have no idea how sound works more fans doesn't mean the noise gets louder and it might actually reduce noise.

Now I agree that just going with some 240mm rad is the easiest to go but claiming those rad's can't keep 350W cool is just stupid and only goes if you need a 20C or lower delta temp.

Your assumptions regarding what I'm thinking aren't correct. When I talk about computer radiators I'm not talking about aluminum radiators, definitely not. Those are the ones used in AIOs, whereas the ones used in custom water cooling loops have no aluminum (at least not on the important parts, those exposed to water or those relevant for heat spreading).

Regarding the operating temperatures, I checked them, indeed, you are right. Its a confusing subject to look upon, if anything because there is a lot of useless information about it.

Regarding the fans... I've checked the data several times and what I see is contrary to what you claim. Lets look at some data regarding Nidec Servo's fans. Because 40mm fans don't show up on their page, lets compare 120mm vs 60mm fans.

a) 120mm fans (the famous Gentle Typhoons). 46 CFM @ 19 dB

b) 60 mm fans. 12 CFM @ 20 dB.

4x 60mm fans have the same area than 1 x 120mm fan. In this case, those 4 x 60mm fan would have a tad higher CFM (48 vs 46)... but they would be louder, since you would normally add 3 dB per extra fan that is equal to the others. It would be noticeably louder, in the end.

Now, if you consider the fact that the smaller the fans, the more inefficient the system gets, I still don't understand how you make such claim regarding small fans.

At last, we aren't talking about a 20ºC Delta...nope, it would be much, much higher. You normally get 10ºC Delta when you try to cool 100W with a 1k rpm fan on a single 120mm rad. We are talking about 200-250W (under normal operating load. A GTX670 ain't that power hungry anyway), you would require fans to spin like mad to maintain any sort of decent Delta. Getting a 20ºC Delta would be kinda hard unless you want to have a vacuum cleaner.
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post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Your assumptions regarding what I'm thinking aren't correct. When I talk about computer radiators I'm not talking about aluminum radiators, definitely not. Those are the ones used in AIOs, whereas the ones used in custom water cooling loops have no aluminum (at least not on the important parts, those exposed to water or those relevant for heat spreading).

Regarding the operating temperatures, I checked them, indeed, you are right. Its a confusing subject to look upon, if anything because there is a lot of useless information about it.

Regarding the fans... I've checked the data several times and what I see is contrary to what you claim. Lets look at some data regarding Nidec Servo's fans. Because 40mm fans don't show up on their page, lets compare 120mm vs 60mm fans.

a) 120mm fans (the famous Gentle Typhoons). 46 CFM @ 19 dB

b) 60 mm fans. 12 CFM @ 20 dB.

4x 60mm fans have the same area than 1 x 120mm fan. In this case, those 4 x 60mm fan would have a tad higher CFM (48 vs 46)... but they would be louder, since you would normally add 3 dB per extra fan that is equal to the others. It would be noticeably louder, in the end.

Now, if you consider the fact that the smaller the fans, the more inefficient the system gets, I still don't understand how you make such claim regarding small fans.

At last, we aren't talking about a 20ºC Delta...nope, it would be much, much higher. You normally get 10ºC Delta when you try to cool 100W with a 1k rpm fan on a single 120mm rad. We are talking about 200-250W (under normal operating load. A GTX670 ain't that power hungry anyway), you would require fans to spin like mad to maintain any sort of decent Delta. Getting a 20ºC Delta would be kinda hard unless you want to have a vacuum cleaner.
A fan scoops air a thicker fan will scoop more air a 4cm thick fan will scoop more than a thin fan per rotation and I can assure you 9x 4cm thick 40mm papst fans scoops more than any 2cm thick 120mm fan.
Again noise cancellation can either be done right or wrong but more fans =/= more noise per se.
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

A fan scoops air a thicker fan will scoop more air a 4cm thick fan will scoop more than a thin fan per rotation and I can assure you 9x 4cm thick 40mm papst fans scoops more than any 2cm thick 120mm fan.
Again noise cancellation can either be done right or wrong but more fans =/= more noise per se.
All running at the same speed and having the same noise profile, yes 4 fans will be louder than 1.
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post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Your assumptions regarding what I'm thinking aren't correct. When I talk about computer radiators I'm not talking about aluminum radiators, definitely not. Those are the ones used in AIOs, whereas the ones used in custom water cooling loops have no aluminum (at least not on the important parts, those exposed to water or those relevant for heat spreading).

Regarding the operating temperatures, I checked them, indeed, you are right. Its a confusing subject to look upon, if anything because there is a lot of useless information about it.

Regarding the fans... I've checked the data several times and what I see is contrary to what you claim. Lets look at some data regarding Nidec Servo's fans. Because 40mm fans don't show up on their page, lets compare 120mm vs 60mm fans.

a) 120mm fans (the famous Gentle Typhoons). 46 CFM @ 19 dB

b) 60 mm fans. 12 CFM @ 20 dB.

4x 60mm fans have the same area than 1 x 120mm fan. In this case, those 4 x 60mm fan would have a tad higher CFM (48 vs 46)... but they would be louder, since you would normally add 3 dB per extra fan that is equal to the others. It would be noticeably louder, in the end.

Now, if you consider the fact that the smaller the fans, the more inefficient the system gets, I still don't understand how you make such claim regarding small fans.

At last, we aren't talking about a 20ºC Delta...nope, it would be much, much higher. You normally get 10ºC Delta when you try to cool 100W with a 1k rpm fan on a single 120mm rad. We are talking about 200-250W (under normal operating load. A GTX670 ain't that power hungry anyway), you would require fans to spin like mad to maintain any sort of decent Delta. Getting a 20ºC Delta would be kinda hard unless you want to have a vacuum cleaner.
Um. A bit wrong there as CFM don't say everything. How about static pressure? 60mmx25mm fans have far more static pressure than 120mmx25mm fans although 120mm is what we use these days it is slightly more efficient as the static pressure and CFM curve drops off quickly after 120mm
Literally for every extra 25% fan area increase to keep static pressure the same the fan has to be 50% thicker than the smaller fan
Ayase Eli
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AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
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Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
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Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
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FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
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Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
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Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
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Ayase Eli
(20 items)
 
Testbench
(10 items)
 
MC Server
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810 
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