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CRYORIG Fan & Cooler Club; R1 Ult, R1 Uni, C1, H5, XF140 & XT140 and all things Cryorig - Page 184

post #1831 of 3742
@doyll,

I agree with you. But since the only thing that has ever changed between the tests is the fans and the rest of the system and environment stayed the same - I don't really see how the intake temps will be different. The only thing I could manage is to put a thermometer in front of the intake of the case. The thermometer was showing exactly the same thing during all tests - 20C which is same as ambient. But this is as good as I can at the current moment.

I also, need to excuse myself. A lot of my posts here could be perceived as me bashing on Cryorig. Well I am not. I am secretly hoping for Steve-S to be reading all of this. I want Cryorig to improve and dominate. I love their approach. I love their engineering, attention to detail, aesthetics and character. And I would definitely like if in few years everyone is chanting "Cryorig" the same way they are chanting Noctua today.

All in all - my test was not to compare the TY to XF in a perfect theoretical performance. My test was one always of a purely practical application. If one fan struggles in my common (which is just a mid tower with common lay out and some extra case fans) set-up - then so be it. Though I want to add, that even if the TY and XF have similar pressure at given RPM (XF slightly higher) the XF pushes a noticeable amount more air.

I do agree that the XF is doing a bit better - specially in dual fan config. Though, the TY needs 200 RPM more to reach the noise level of the XF or in other words, 900 RPM TY has similar noise level as XF at 700 RPM. Though still the XF has higher performance for the same RPM.

I never criticized the R1 heatsink - actually the heatsink is so well put together, that it puts to shame the resent Noctua NH-D14 a colleague asked me to mount in his home workstation.

I never criticized the XF for its performance. Actually, it is one of the best, if not the best performing 140 mm fan I have ever seen up to date. What I have always criticized is the noise levels of the XF. But then again, Cryorig stated - "Ultimate Performance" and ultimate performance they deliver. Just in my own logic, I would have engineered the XF to start at 500 RPM or 400 RPM. At that RPM it would have been really quieter with a very slight C increase. Then it would really have been a high-end fan suitable both for silence and ultimate performance. I just feel a bit cheated on the "Kill the Noise Silence is Cold" slogan.
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post #1832 of 3742
@Colin_MC,

It took the Dual XF140s RPM of around 700 to achieve 56C. It took the dual TY-147A 915 to achieve the same result. That 200 RPM difference is what I would call a lead. thumb.gif

The way I painted the TY-147A was with black matte spray paint. I used masking tape to mask the frame. I used some toilet paper and a very thin and small screwdriver to stuff some toilet paper into the crack between the fan and the frame (so it covers the motor hole). Then I used thin layers of spray. When I was done - I just removed everything and had a black TY-147A. It actually took only 1 stroke in horizontal direction and a second stroke in vertical direction to get it done. I measured the painted fan and the non-painted fan on a digital scale - they were showing the exact same 171.1 grams. So the paint coat I added is within the margin of error of the scale - which mean the coat is thin enough not to affect the motor - or at least I hope.

[Be advised - any modding or tempering with your own equipment is at your own risk and responsibility, and will void warranty. I guess you know, but just needed to mention that again.]
Edited by Shneiky - 11/4/15 at 4:16am
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post #1833 of 3742
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneiky View Post

@doyll,

I agree with you. But since the only thing that has ever changed between the tests is the fans and the rest of the system and environment stayed the same - I don't really see how the intake temps will be different. The only thing I could manage is to put a thermometer in front of the intake of the case. The thermometer was showing exactly the same thing during all tests - 20C which is same as ambient. But this is as good as I can at the current moment.

I also, need to excuse myself. A lot of my posts here could be perceived as me bashing on Cryorig. Well I am not. I am secretly hoping for Steve-S to be reading all of this. I want Cryorig to improve and dominate. I love their approach. I love their engineering, attention to detail, aesthetics and character. And I would definitely like if in few years everyone is chanting "Cryorig" the same way they are chanting Noctua today.

All in all - my test was not to compare the TY to XF in a perfect theoretical performance. My test was one always of a purely practical application. If one fan struggles in my common (which is just a mid tower with common lay out and some extra case fans) set-up - then so be it. Though I want to add, that even if the TY and XF have similar pressure at given RPM (XF slightly higher) the XF pushes a noticeable amount more air.

I do agree that the XF is doing a bit better - specially in dual fan config. Though, the TY needs 200 RPM more to reach the noise level of the XF or in other words, 900 RPM TY has similar noise level as XF at 700 RPM. Though still the XF has higher performance for the same RPM.

I never criticized the R1 heatsink - actually the heatsink is so well put together, that it puts to shame the resent Noctua NH-D14 a colleague asked me to mount in his home workstation.

I never criticized the XF for its performance. Actually, it is one of the best, if not the best performing 140 mm fan I have ever seen up to date. What I have always criticized is the noise levels of the XF. But then again, Cryorig stated - "Ultimate Performance" and ultimate performance they deliver. Just in my own logic, I would have engineered the XF to start at 500 RPM or 400 RPM. At that RPM it would have been really quieter with a very slight C increase. Then it would really have been a high-end fan suitable both for silence and ultimate performance. I just feel a bit cheated on the "Kill the Noise Silence is Cold" slogan.

If we forget the RPM to temp and use the noise to temp both fans perform near identical? To me noise level to airflow is more important than RPM to airflow. RPM is an abstract number, but noise is something real. One of the best fan testing sights I know of is ThermalBench. So far is testing has been on a radiator so results may be different on an air cooler. But my point is he does RPM to dBA, RPM to linear and linear airflow to dBA This way we know what a system will sound like at a given airflow as well as fan speed.

I know you are not bashing Cryorig. And the XF and TY perform pretty much the same at same noise level, it's just that the TY is quieter and moves less air at same .. and like you said, for some of us the TY sound is not as distracting as the XF

The cooler intake air temp is just something I have a fetish about. Air is such a fickled witch, sometimes doing strange things with almost no changes in system. For TY fans have an oval airflow (wider on the round sides) and this often improves cooler performance by flowing air more evenly to all pipes, or it can change the airflow pattern of case airflow .. resulting in different cooler intake air temps.

I agree, fans that will idle at 400-500rpm are ideal.

What did you think of the D14 mount versus the R1?
post #1834 of 3742
I agree with you on most points and I disagree on one point. Noise in dbA is something real. Noise profile is something very abstract.

1 - Noise

I have the computer on the desk, almost touching the monitor and the intake approx 40-50 cm away from my ear. In open air I hooked up the TY, the XF and a 120 mm Silent Wings 2 to my fan controller. The TY at 300 RPM sounds almost exactly the same as Silent Wings 2 (or in this case - Shadow Wings) 120mm at 500. With my eyes closed - I could not distinguish them. And Silent Wings 2 have the most pleasant noise profile I have encountered - apart from the TY.

Now the TY when ramped up sounds a bit like the proper of an airplane. The XF however - reminds me of a hornet. The TY noise dies quicker with distance, while the low treble of the XF does survive distance and it is pretty hard to dampen by the case. To my ear - a single XF at 700 RPM is twice as loud as dual TY-147s at 800 RPM. Also, having 1 TY or 2 TY did impact noise rather little. While having 2 XF did substantially increase the noise over a single fan config.

This are my notes on the single fan config of the noise profile. I did the test at 3 AM when there is no almost no noise. I live in a place where cars and vehicles are not allowed in a perimeter of more than a 100 meters. So with the exception of a drunk student passing by - the noise level is amazingly low.

RPM TY-147 Noise
278 Quieter than system
490 Same as rest of the system
672 Barely audiable over system - airflow noise - 10 cm
806 Barely audiable over system - airflow noise - 30 cm
981 Medium aiflow noise and slight humming noise - 50cm
1244 Loud humming noise

RPM XF-140 Noise
755 Barely audiable airflow noise - 50 cm
1123 Medium-Loud turbulence noise - 50 cm
1285 Loud turbulence noise - 50 cm
1436 Even louder Louder


2 - Cooler intake temps.

"For TY fans have an oval airflow (wider on the round sides) and this often improves cooler performance by flowing air more evenly to all pipes, or it can change the airflow pattern of case airflow" - that is good to know that they have more of an oval shape. I tought this would not matter that much, since the R1 has covers around the fins - concentrating air inside, instead of it spilling out like a Noctua or a Phanteks or a Thermalright. Will try to get some probe some day.

3 - Noctua vs Cryorig mount

Well, pretty much similar. Nothing to write home about. Both are extremely easy to use (looking at you be quiet! and your ridiculous little wrench). Though the Noctua is a bit easier, since you have visibility of the screws, while the the R1 - I need to go for some "touch and feel" guesswork with the included screwdriver around the fins cutout. But this is more of a cooler design point, and not the mounting kit itself.
Edited by Shneiky - 11/4/15 at 10:36am
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post #1835 of 3742
Hi @Shneiky No offense taken, I do read almost everything whenever I can get some breathing room, probably not daily, not in chronological order either. But I do go through roughly everything I can find on the net regarding how our users are thinking of the products. We even take the true basher's comments humbly. OCN in particular has been a great source of feedback for me and my team, and almost everything said here is constructive and give me something to build on:D! So we appreciate any discussion about our products, including your comments too!

Back on topic about fans. Initially when we came out with the XF and XT fans they had one mission, to deliver the best performance out of the R1's oddly designed fins (dual stacks of changing fin gaps.) This lead us to choose the initial Performance>dBA route. As a new brand we really needed the added oomph of a top performer. In our mindset the media and forums would not be as forgiving to a fresh new brand name that was silent but did not have amazing performance. That's why we were satisfied with the dBA levels and performance that the XF, XT + R1 gave us. Don't take me wrong, the XF and XT fans are by no means "bad" fans that were rushed out. We simply put one priority over the other, extremely high performance, while keeping dBA and noise acceptable to us (no leaf blower fan!)

The noise profile issue is actually something that we didn't anticipate for, possibly it's just the difference in tolerance levels individually, and something not easily detected by scientific methods or equipment. But it's definitely not something we've only heard once. We are all too familiar with the TY-140 ( I have around 20 at home and more in our labs.) And everything stated about the "Characteristics" makes a lot of sense once compared. I apologize on part of Team CRYORIG, as we truly did not look into this detail during product planning. But this is actually high on our agenda right now. In beginning of next year we also aim to dwell deeper in the silent cooling categories.

We actually have some early designs of silent version fans with new impellers. We will then trying make Silent Editions of our existing products, with some fan and fin fine tuning.
post #1836 of 3742
Hello @Steve-S,

Thank you for keeping an eye on the internet and your user base. I appreciate your hard work and the effort Cryorig puts in the products.

XF and XT fans are by no means bad. I honestly believe that XF does have a lot of points that it does better compared to the TY-147A, while the TY does other things better.

For one thing, the XF has a quieter bearing. Though the XF fans (or at least my two samples) do not like horizontal mount (bottom to top airflow) as the fan start to vibrate. The XF also exhibits slight vibration throughout its range of RPM even when mounted horizontally. My XFs are an year old and I believe the vibration increased over my ownership period.

The TY-147A on the other side - exhibits no vibration up until 900 RPM, but at 1100 the fan vibration increases noticeably and at 1300 - it makes my video card rattle, it's like it is dancing in the case. To recap - the XF has slight vibration through its range which increases slighty. The TY has no vibration in which increases significantly at max RPM

On this comparison, the XF is the superior fan. The bearing used by Cryorig is top notch. The fan design of XF does clearly overtake the TY design in pure performance perspective.

My own personal tests lead to me to believe that the XF140 design can be completely sufficient to cool while providing low noise levels at even 400 or 500 RPM, while keeping the ability to ramp up and provide the ton of cooling it does at max RPM.

If I can give a piece of advice for a maybe XF2-140 version - if you could dial the fan to start at 400-500 RPM instead of the 700 - it will already give the Cryorig coolers an opportunity to content into the silent area without sacrificing max performance. The delta between 750 RPM dual XF and almost 1400 RPM RPM dual XF is just 2 C. The XF design does hold a lot of promise.

On my own machine - rendering with VRay for 2 hours ended up at 52C with dual TY-147s at 450 RPM. Running P95 with same Fan settings gives me 63 C. That is 11C delta between one of the heaviest real world applications (Rendering with a 3D rendering Engine) and unrealistic P95.

The XF design is much more efficient at low RPM than other designs. Instead of the dual XFs at 750 RPM giving 56C under P95 and 45C during rendering - I would have been OK to get 60C and 400 RPM, for example.

In my opinion, you guys at Cryorig have a ton of stuff already figured out. You have good eye for detail, some rather good ideas and the courage to push to the next limit. You got very solid craftsmanship. The only thing that you have left is to figure the tiny little details thumb.gif

Keep on the good work and thank you for listening.

Also - how is the Z1 going? I want one! tongue.gif
Edited by Shneiky - 11/6/15 at 2:00pm
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post #1837 of 3742
Thread Starter 
Also in Cryorig's defense, at the time the R1, XF140 and XT140 fans were being developed, consumers were not as worried about noise as now.

Cryorig's design and marketing philosophy have took the air cooler market by storm to become one of the very best and popular cooler companies in the business. Add to this their dedication to customer support and even more and better products, I expect to be happily using Cryorig products years and years in the future.
post #1838 of 3742
@doyll,

I completely agree with you that the majority of consumers were not concerned with quiet 2-3-4 years ago as they are now. But neither me, nor you are the majority of consumers, right? tongue.gif

And the majority of benches I have seen - R1 is the top air cooler. On average - it trades blows with the 40 grams heavier and size wise larger NH-D15 and manages to win or stay equal in performance. (depending on the reviewer) That is no small feat considering the size difference. It definitely takes some fine engineering to manage that.

There is future in Cryorig thumb.gif I also hope to be using them again in the future. But I also want them to improve - hence why I am critical about certain aspects, but always giving credits where it is due.
Edited by Shneiky - 11/6/15 at 2:17pm
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post #1839 of 3742
On our tests we got 1 degree better temp on nh-d15s with 2x a-15 fans. Tho they do go about 100 rpm higher than XF fans. As far as audio, XF fans sound a lot louder on lower rmp, but noticably better on higher rpm. If only XFs had a bigger pwm duty cycle, they'd be perfect.
post #1840 of 3742
@Kutalion,

Yeap. Agree with you. That is what I have been saying for quite a few pages already. thumb.gif
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