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Samsung 840 Evo 120GB Rapid Mode vs. RAID - Page 2

post #11 of 20
The only PC RAID hardware and software that supports TRIM in RAID 0 is from Intel, officially on their 7 series chipset boards, and newer chipsets. AMD has not announced TRIM support in RAID 0 yet.

But then we have the Win 8 SSD "optimizer" function, which can be run on a RAID 0 volume of SSDs, at least it did on a RAID 0 array I have. But the question is, did it actually do anything.

Before this optimizer and Intel's RAID driver support for TRIM in RAID 0, Windows 7 sent TRIM instructions to RAID 0 arrays of SSDs, as it would to any SSD. The problem is the TRIM instructions never reached the SSDs, the RAID driver does not pass them to the SSDs.

The format of data stored in RAID 0 arrays is different than that of data stored on a single drive. The Windows file system sent TRIM instructions with file addresses it thinks the data that is no longer needed is located, which is not the same at all as where the data is actually stored on two or more SSDs in RAID 0. Apparently mapping those TRIM instructions to the actual multiple disk locations on the RAID array where the data is stored is (or was) very difficult, time and resource consuming, or impossible. So the TRIM instructions are simply ignored by the RAID software when the target disk volume is a RAID array, thus no TRIM for RAID volumes. In short, the RAID driver/software does not allow TRIM instructions to work.

The Win 8 optimizer may send TRIM instructions to a RAID volume, but what is different about this than the scenario I described above? Nothing. The Win 8 SSD Optimizer has been available for quite a while now, and I'm not hearing about the miracle of the Win 8 Optimizer causing TRIM to work with SSDs in RAID.

That can be tested with the trimcheck program, just Google on trimcheck and you'll get many download sources and descriptions about it. But I'm sure all you'll find it's not working for you on your Z68 chipset mother board, since Intel does not support RAID 0 TRIM on your board. But some people say that is an artificial constraint imposed by Intel (which basically is correct), and they have found ways around this.

You can find modified BIOS files that trick the Intel RAID system into believing it is working with the appropriate Intel chipset to allow TRIM in RAID 0. Those modified BIOS files change the chipset identification number, and may have a different (newer) Intel RAID Option ROM, since only IRST version 11 (and newer) Option ROMS and IRST drivers support RAID 0 TRIM.

AFAIK, the idea about EVO's not working in RAID was started in a forum post, where someone said he was told by "Samsung support" that EVO's won't work in RAID. It turns out that Samsung outsources their telephone support to another company, and the personnel are poorly trained, and best suited for "how do I turn on my PC" questions. IMO that "answer" was given just to end the conversation.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by TELVM View Post

One 840 Pro on RAPID (compressed RAM cache 1GB tops size):

50d726aa_ASSSDbenchmark.png

Two 840 EVOs in RAID0:

734d4710_5801_23_samsung_840_evo_500gb_raid_0_ssd_report.png


Then if you got ample RAM you may consider a specialised RAM caching software. Vertex 4 on Primocache, uncompressed 4GB RAM cache size:


Given the AS SSD benchmark results for the Samsung SSDs in RAPID and RAID 0, I would take the EVO's in RAID 0, period.

It of course does help that it's two, 500GB EVO's being used, but look at the 4K read speed, which is available during boot, unlike RAPID.

The crazy 4K-64Thrd write speed of RAPID is absolutely worthless in a PC, that situation never happens. The trick of jacking up the 4K-64Thrd read and/or write speed to increase the overall AS SSD score has been used since the Vertex 4 was released, if not before.

Samsung used it with RAPID to make the EVO more attractive since it uses TLC NAND. But in reality the EVO does not need any help, it is a great drive without RAPID. Providing over 40MB/s of 4K read speed in RAID 0, makes SSDs in RAID 0 a worthwhile option again IMO.

BTW, how does the Vertex 4 perform with Primocache in actual use? Just wondering, since most people say RAPID makes no difference in actual use, and I agree.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

... how does the Vertex 4 perform with Primocache in actual use? ...

Lightning quick once data are loaded into the RAM cache after first run (or after tactical pre-caching maneouvers).

Business as usual before that..
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post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

The only PC RAID hardware and software that supports TRIM in RAID 0 is from Intel, officially on their 7 series chipset boards, and newer chipsets. AMD has not announced TRIM support in RAID 0 yet.

But then we have the Win 8 SSD "optimizer" function, which can be run on a RAID 0 volume of SSDs, at least it did on a RAID 0 array I have. But the question is, did it actually do anything.

Before this optimizer and Intel's RAID driver support for TRIM in RAID 0, Windows 7 sent TRIM instructions to RAID 0 arrays of SSDs, as it would to any SSD. The problem is the TRIM instructions never reached the SSDs, the RAID driver does not pass them to the SSDs.

The format of data stored in RAID 0 arrays is different than that of data stored on a single drive. The Windows file system sent TRIM instructions with file addresses it thinks the data that is no longer needed is located, which is not the same at all as where the data is actually stored on two or more SSDs in RAID 0. Apparently mapping those TRIM instructions to the actual multiple disk locations on the RAID array where the data is stored is (or was) very difficult, time and resource consuming, or impossible. So the TRIM instructions are simply ignored by the RAID software when the target disk volume is a RAID array, thus no TRIM for RAID volumes. In short, the RAID driver/software does not allow TRIM instructions to work.

The Win 8 optimizer may send TRIM instructions to a RAID volume, but what is different about this than the scenario I described above? Nothing. The Win 8 SSD Optimizer has been available for quite a while now, and I'm not hearing about the miracle of the Win 8 Optimizer causing TRIM to work with SSDs in RAID.

That can be tested with the trimcheck program, just Google on trimcheck and you'll get many download sources and descriptions about it. But I'm sure all you'll find it's not working for you on your Z68 chipset mother board, since Intel does not support RAID 0 TRIM on your board. But some people say that is an artificial constraint imposed by Intel (which basically is correct), and they have found ways around this.

You can find modified BIOS files that trick the Intel RAID system into believing it is working with the appropriate Intel chipset to allow TRIM in RAID 0. Those modified BIOS files change the chipset identification number, and may have a different (newer) Intel RAID Option ROM, since only IRST version 11 (and newer) Option ROMS and IRST drivers support RAID 0 TRIM.

AFAIK, the idea about EVO's not working in RAID was started in a forum post, where someone said he was told by "Samsung support" that EVO's won't work in RAID. It turns out that Samsung outsources their telephone support to another company, and the personnel are poorly trained, and best suited for "how do I turn on my PC" questions. IMO that "answer" was given just to end the conversation.

I'll have to give that TRIMcheck a go when I get home, see what's what.
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

Given the AS SSD benchmark results for the Samsung SSDs in RAPID and RAID 0, I would take the EVO's in RAID 0, period.

It of course does help that it's two, 500GB EVO's being used, but look at the 4K read speed, which is available during boot, unlike RAPID.

The crazy 4K-64Thrd write speed of RAPID is absolutely worthless in a PC, that situation never happens. The trick of jacking up the 4K-64Thrd read and/or write speed to increase the overall AS SSD score has been used since the Vertex 4 was released, if not before.

Samsung used it with RAPID to make the EVO more attractive since it uses TLC NAND. But in reality the EVO does not need any help, it is a great drive without RAPID. Providing over 40MB/s of 4K read speed in RAID 0, makes SSDs in RAID 0 a worthwhile option again IMO.

BTW, how does the Vertex 4 perform with Primocache in actual use? Just wondering, since most people say RAPID makes no difference in actual use, and I agree.

Geez parsec, you're breaking my balls here. It feels like you're coming at me from opposite angles. I also assumed that RAPID was useless during boot, as you've confirmed to me. So I guess I'll stick with the RAID0, TRIM be damned?

Actually, I did some poking around about the modified ROM's to get TRIM working on my Z68. Lead me to a guy here on OCN doing it, and I seem to have found one for my motherboard. So methinks I'm going to have to give this a shot.

QUESTION: I've got a few RAID's running on the same motherboard right now, two of which are very important to me. Will this ROM erase them all? I extended the same question to the creator of the OROM's, so we'll see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TELVM View Post

Lightning quick once data are loaded into the RAM cache after first run (or after tactical pre-caching maneouvers).

Business as usual before that..

Methinks I'm going to have put PrimoCache on the queue for when I get that extra RAM I haven't yet been able to justify buying...
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasanovaFly View Post

I'll have to give that TRIMcheck a go when I get home, see what's what.
Geez parsec, you're breaking my balls here. It feels like you're coming at me from opposite angles. I also assumed that RAPID was useless during boot, as you've confirmed to me. So I guess I'll stick with the RAID0, TRIM be damned?

Not my intent to be a nutcracker at all. wink.gif I guess my post turned into a story or drama, where there's hope, and then not, hope again, and then maybe not. My mistake was not checking your PC before I started the post, for some reason I thought you had an AMD system, which would mean no TRIM in RAID possible.

I've used SSDs in RAID 0 on older Intel platforms before any TRIM in RAID 0 existed. The array worked fine as an OS drive for a year, but I kept 75% of it empty, which is a big help. Wait, am I teasing you again? redface.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasanovaFly View Post

Actually, I did some poking around about the modified ROM's to get TRIM working on my Z68. Lead me to a guy here on OCN doing it, and I seem to have found one for my motherboard. So methinks I'm going to have to give this a shot.

QUESTION: I've got a few RAID's running on the same motherboard right now, two of which are very important to me. Will this ROM erase them all? I extended the same question to the creator of the OROM's, so we'll see.
Methinks I'm going to have put PrimoCache on the queue for when I get that extra RAM I haven't yet been able to justify buying...

Changing Option ROMs won't erase anything, at worst the RAID volumes might not work but that should not happen. I have seen the UEFI/BIOS modders with the new Option ROMs recommend that the user install Windows again after the UEFI/BIOS update, but I don't know if that is required. That's most likely a CYA for the modders, when less than savvy people try the modded BIOS and have issues, no offense to the modders, I don't blame them, I would say the same thing. Just keep in mind that using the modded BIOS is not the usual BIOS update kind of thing, many times the modders don't have a board like yours to test it on. Their method for changing Option ROMs is fine, it works, but the modders will tell you, use at your own risk.

The most important thing to know before you try a modded BIOS, is whether or not your board will allow you to change to any BIOS version you choose. That is, if you can change to an earlier BIOS version than is currently installed. Or, install the same BIOS version over again, if the modded version does not work or causes problems. Some BIOS update programs might not allow you to install a version older than the current version.

I would never try a modded BIOS on a system that you cannot risk loosing your data. Back up the data first and have the backup storage disconnected from the PC. That is really common sense, but some people will just try a modded BIOS with zero preparation or backups, and freak out if something goes wrong.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

The only PC RAID hardware and software that supports TRIM in RAID 0 is from Intel, officially on their 7 series chipset boards, and newer chipsets. AMD has not announced TRIM support in RAID 0 yet.

Trim for raid0 is also possible for Z68 (and P67 I think) with a bios updated with the latest orom and ofc rst 11 or later.
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

Not my intent to be a nutcracker at all. wink.gif I guess my post turned into a story or drama, where there's hope, and then not, hope again, and then maybe not. My mistake was not checking your PC before I started the post, for some reason I thought you had an AMD system, which would mean no TRIM in RAID possible.

I've used SSDs in RAID 0 on older Intel platforms before any TRIM in RAID 0 existed. The array worked fine as an OS drive for a year, but I kept 75% of it empty, which is a big help. Wait, am I teasing you again? redface.gif
Changing Option ROMs won't erase anything, at worst the RAID volumes might not work but that should not happen. I have seen the UEFI/BIOS modders with the new Option ROMs recommend that the user install Windows again after the UEFI/BIOS update, but I don't know if that is required. That's most likely a CYA for the modders, when less than savvy people try the modded BIOS and have issues, no offense to the modders, I don't blame them, I would say the same thing. Just keep in mind that using the modded BIOS is not the usual BIOS update kind of thing, many times the modders don't have a board like yours to test it on. Their method for changing Option ROMs is fine, it works, but the modders will tell you, use at your own risk.

The most important thing to know before you try a modded BIOS, is whether or not your board will allow you to change to any BIOS version you choose. That is, if you can change to an earlier BIOS version than is currently installed. Or, install the same BIOS version over again, if the modded version does not work or causes problems. Some BIOS update programs might not allow you to install a version older than the current version.

I would never try a modded BIOS on a system that you cannot risk loosing your data. Back up the data first and have the backup storage disconnected from the PC. That is really common sense, but some people will just try a modded BIOS with zero preparation or backups, and freak out if something goes wrong.

The backup of my RAID data isn't really an option. Walking a thin line with my many TB's all RAID0'd. Can't afford the redundancy right now, or the extra SATA ports necessary to make something better. Need to get a server up and running, but that will cost dough to do it right the way I want it done. This one might need to go on the backburner for now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaxx420 View Post

Trim for raid0 is also possible for Z68 (and P67 I think) with a bios updated with the latest orom and ofc rst 11 or later.

Here's the link to the OCN thread where garikfox provides OROM's for a lot of boards.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasanovaFly View Post
The backup of my RAID data isn't really an option. Walking a thin line with my many TB's all RAID0'd. Can't afford the redundancy right now, or the extra SATA ports necessary to make something better. Need to get a server up and running, but that will cost dough to do it right the way I want it done. This one might need to go on the backburner for now...

OMG, you should at least setup some cloud storage for your most important stuff (copy, box, dropbox, google drive, skydrive/onedrive, etc). RAID 0 with everything and no backup...I wish you the most of luck. External drives or external drive hotswap docks work good too and don't need to use your SATA ports. ;)

post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Webster View Post

OMG, you should at least setup some cloud storage for your most important stuff (copy, box, dropbox, google drive, skydrive/onedrive, etc). RAID 0 with everything and no backup...I wish you the most of luck. External drives or external drive hotswap docks work good too and don't need to use your SATA ports. wink.gif

I should explain. I've got cloud storage for the stuff that's actually important, like documents and pictures and such. My other two RAID's are filled with TV Shows and Movies. Stuff that's relatively easy to replicate, but that will be a pain in the butt to do so. And, again, I just don't have the cash or the extra SATA ports for any redundancy. It's just not an option for me. I chose to live on the edge rather than not live at all.
post #20 of 20
Sorry to bring this old thread back to life but I thought I would like to add my experience using both RAID 0 and Rapid Mode on a older x58 system (Rampage III Extreme). I purchased two Samsung 840 Pros, back over a year ago. Both have been used extensively in both raid 0 and ahci mode using rapid caching. RAID 0 flat out kills any other mode on my system, it is far superior period, IF we are talking strictly as an OS/Apps drive. For storage I prefer AHCI single drive mode on the workstation. Now in my 8tb backup server I use all drives pooled using drive pool, by that's another story.

But for Windows 8.1 at least RAID using my Intel chipset has been far superior to any other mode. It is clear that Windows starts faster, runs apps much quicker and never has any problems. I have the fortunate experience to have a chipset that does not have TRIM natively in raid, but I can give myself TRIM simply by running a custom BIOS (which I do now). I have run my two drives in raid 0, both with and without TRIM and never once did I see any problems or reductions in speed using either. Now, with that said I think the newer chipsets may be too fast in single drive ahci mode anyway, thus real world benefit may not be recognized unless we are talking about sheer transfer speeds, or benchmarking scores.

So, in my opinion, this question is better suited to be answered only by knowing the exact chipsets used to render RAID 0 or AHCI/Rapid. Also, with RAID 0 I felt I was missing out on potential Samsung services such as using their firmware update tool in Windows etc. However, after several firmware updates I have never noticed any "real-world" benefit to them. So I will be going back to my RAID 0/TRIM setup. I spent exactly 7 months in RAID 0 on my two 840's and then in November I went to single drive setup using RAPID mode. So I have experience using both (raid or ahci) and I must admit I think the RAID setup gave me more out of these drives. At least Windows and apps were much faster using raid... and that is what I purchased these enthusiast class SSD's for in the first place.
Edited by }SkOrPn--' - 5/15/14 at 12:33pm
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