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CM Storm Mizar & Alcor Review by Takasta - Page 14

post #131 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Which direction should i throw my money for a fingertippable mouse with low weight (~80g +-20 i guess preferable) that has this thing and when am i likely to get one? x3

I'm using a DA 3.5g for an acceptable FPS sensor and a xornet for an acceptable grip for osu/sc2/league/other-2d-stuffs, both of them have major shortcomings and i have to switch them out all the time.

Oh, what's the LOD? I prefer higher (like 3.5g has) but i guess lower is acceptable if the grip is good on the shell (bad grip + low LOD = sometimes lifting from pad a little = RANDOMLY STARING AT SKY DURING A TURN)

Quite a few people have been pushing for Logitech to come out with a small and lightweight mouse with this sensor. No one knows if/when that will happen yet though.

Default LOD wasn't too low but not as high as a DA 3.5g. I don't remember exactly. After using the surface tuner it's down to about 1 CD for me. You might be able to trick the tuner into giving you a higher LOD somehow if the default isn't high enough for you.
post #132 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Quite a few things are like that for some people - for example the lag when moving mouse and dragging windows when you have vsynced windows themes, and not the basic theme - i think like 99% of people don't use the basic theme, but it feels awkward for me on 120hz and makes me scream on 60hz.

Could you or anyone explain to me why all this smoothing/lag business is more apparent at 60 hz as opposed to 120 hz? Many people sensitive to this usually find it "unbearable" at 60 hz and somewhat bearable at 120 hz. Isn't it a bit counter-intuitive? Shouldn't it be easier to "see" or "feel" the smoothing/lag if your monitor is more responsive?
post #133 of 180
The 3310 is widely liked...best sensor available other than the 3366. Both leaves the 3090 in the dust 90% of the time as far as I'm concerned.
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post #134 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crizzl View Post

Could you or anyone explain to me why all this smoothing/lag business is more apparent at 60 hz as opposed to 120 hz? Many people sensitive to this usually find it "unbearable" at 60 hz and somewhat bearable at 120 hz. Isn't it a bit counter-intuitive? Shouldn't it be easier to "see" or "feel" the smoothing/lag if your monitor is more responsive?

On a sensor level, that was my initial thought too.

For normal window/interactivity though at least, 120hz vsync has a delay of up to ~8.34ms added. If you move the window right after the refresh cycle, that's how long it is 'til next frame. 60hz has double the peak and average delay.

I think mouse-to-screen on a fast setup can be as low as ~20ms these days with a great setup, so if 120hz vsync (up to ~8.34ms added) feels muddy and slow, then 60hz vsync (up to ~16.67ms) understandably feels terrible. Without vsync, your window dragging and cursor will respond notably faster, but tear as they're moving between refresh cycles instead of waiting for them

To be honest i've used a few 60hz screen + 125hz mouse setups recently - it's a completely different world to sitting with a vg248qe and a 500/1000hz mouse. I'm not sure how most people do it, the delay is way worse than i think 3310 sensor could possibly have
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/22/14 at 8:59am
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post #135 of 180
I'll never understand the whole smoothing thing being worse on 60 Hz than 120, you're adding the same delay from the mouse itself. It's not as if changing the refresh rate reconfigures the mouse hardware. That argument is ridiculous to me.
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post #136 of 180
I've never been able to figure out why the refresh rate of the monitor would make any difference to the feel of the cursor. I will say that I've found my mouse cursor to be much snappier with my 120Hz monitor. Just not sure of the science behind it.
Edited by DivineDark - 4/22/14 at 9:06am
post #137 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineDark View Post

I've never been able to figure out why the refresh rate of the monitor would make any difference to the feel of the cursor. I will say that I've found my mouse cursor to be much snappier with my 120Hz monitor. Just not sure of the science behind it.

I could explain this but it's extremely difficult to write it in an easy-to-understand-for-everyone way

Lets just say.. Higher sampling frequency = less latency. Since our screens have a finite refresh rate, they're essentially sampling cursor position with a limited frequency.

If you're near some traffic lights changing from red to green, and you look every 1 second to see if it changed to green yet, you'll know within 1 second that it changed.

If you only look once every 5 seconds, the light could have changed 3-4 seconds ago, and you wouldn't have seen the updated condition yet
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post #138 of 180
That's a good analogy. The inverse of frames per second is seconds per frame. For 60 FPS/60 Hz vsync, the input lag added by the monitor's refreshing is at most 1/60th of a second, or 16.7 ms. At 120 Hz we noticeably move to a much lower 8.3 ms, and at 144 Hz we are at 6.94 ms. I play on 144 now because LightBoost actually adds some additional latency in itself over standard refreshes.

This does not take into account a LOT of other factors. See this excellent article from one of my favorite sites, Anandtech.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803
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post #139 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

I could explain this but it's extremely difficult to write it in an easy-to-understand-for-everyone way

Lets just say.. Higher sampling frequency = less latency. Since our screens have a finite refresh rate, they're essentially sampling cursor position with a limited frequency.

If you're near some traffic lights changing from red to green, and you look every 1 second to see if it changed to green yet, you'll know within 1 second that it changed.

If you only look once every 5 seconds, the light could have changed 3-4 seconds ago, and you wouldn't have seen the updated condition yet

Makes perfect sense, actually.
post #140 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by metal571 View Post

That's a good analogy. The inverse of frames per second is seconds per frame. For 60 FPS/60 Hz vsync, the input lag added by the monitor's refreshing is at most 1/60th of a second, or 16.7 ms. At 120 Hz we noticeably move to a much lower 8.3 ms, and at 144 Hz we are at 6.94 ms. I play on 144 now because LightBoost actually adds some additional latency in itself over standard refreshes.

This does not take into account a LOT of other factors. See this excellent article from one of my favorite sites, Anandtech.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803

This is an example of a more optimal case from blurbusters -

lag-csgo.png

http://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/

You see with fps_max command set too high, with that implementation of gsync + the game, it was basically acting like v-sync and increasing latency from ~25ms to ~37ms! That's a 1.5x increase in latency - everyone can feel that. Maybe it just feels "off" - but if you have a switch to toggle between them, you could blind test it on/off, as in toggle it back/forth and say which is which, without much problem. With the weird interaction fixed, it's back down to ~25 again with g-sync.

That's with 120hz - the potential latency of vsynced 60hz vs a good 120hz setup is very big. It'd be in the range of 50+, probably. Many people have over 100ms mouse-to-screen with bad latency setups - i don't trust somebody with 50-100ms mouse-to-screen latency to tell me how a 3310 would feel if i'm using 25ms mouse-to-screen. If there was a 10ms delay in processing, it would present itself to the 50-100ms guy as a 10-20% increase in latency, yet to the 25ms person as a 40% increase (arbitrary stat)

On those runs on a vg248qe, some of the runs are as low as 13-15ms mouse to screen! :0 (just the lucky ones though, that's not the average)
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/22/14 at 10:24am
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