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Phenom II beats FX Vishera core for core? - Page 17

post #161 of 242
Not sure why it matters. FACT thuban/phenom hit the end of the line, there was no more room for improvement. So debating the end of one against the beginning of another is futile. This whole debate becomes more pointless with excavator anyway. Ipc at same clocks is in the favor of phenom. But then you have supported instruction sets, die size/node. No matter how you wish to compare it will never be fair to either side. Wprime uses x87 which while supported on phenom is not on FX. And that is just one example.
post #162 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

I can see why the Magny-Cours Operons are popular with the folders. You can get them used on the cheap, they're still badass CPUs, and they're awesome. But don't pretend they have any place in Enterprise anymore, because they don't.

At no point did I state that Magnycours is a current preferred option over Abu Dhabi in enterprise environments. What I did state is that enterprise administrators favor energy efficiency (and as you pointed out, density). This is why Intel completely owns the server market, and this is why ARM is making headwinds as well. Granted, as you also pointed out, the current Abu Dhabi chips have superior instruction sets and IMC properties, but in the measure of compute folding efficiency, MC more than holds its own.
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post #163 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by btupsx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

I can see why the Magny-Cours Operons are popular with the folders. You can get them used on the cheap, they're still badass CPUs, and they're awesome. But don't pretend they have any place in Enterprise anymore, because they don't.

At no point did I state that Magnycours is a current preferred option over Abu Dhabi in enterprise environments. What I did state is that enterprise administrators favor energy efficiency (and as you pointed out, density). This is why Intel completely owns the server market, and this is why ARM is making headwinds as well. Granted, as you also pointed out, the current Abu Dhabi chips have superior instruction sets and IMC properties, but in the measure of compute folding efficiency, MC more than holds its own.

Agreed. At minimum the price of the new chips would never justify the minimal performance increase, and folding as far as I'm aware wouldn't make use of the newer things anyway.
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post #164 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Find me even one program that can use 6 cores but not 8, without you putting limitations on the program, and your argument will be legitimate. If only for that one program.

Irrelevant, as most that can use 8, can use 12, and so on and so forth, until we're comparing clusters... As soon as the bar has been moved to accommodate the additional parallelism, then ALL considerations of increased parallelism are on the table, otherwise it's a double standard. Being ABLE to use more cores to take advantage of the compute efficiency afforded by parallelism is wonderful, but it doesn't answer the question of which core design has better compute efficiency.
Quote:
Until then, adding more cores at slower speeds is a way to increase computing efficiency

Exactly my point all along. If parallelism has the potential to improve compute efficiency, in and of itself, then taking advantage of parallelism will mask architecture differences and make it impossible to distinguish which design has better baseline compute efficiency.
Quote:
since a stock 8350 will perform the same as a 6350 at 5.3 in multithread while consuming far less power. That is how the real world works.

Yea, a point that I have repeated dozens of times now. Finding out that parallelism improves compute efficiency is not the point, everyone knows that. Furthermore, an FX-6350 and FX-8350 are from the same architecture, so they have the same compute efficiency when tuned to the same parallelism and clocks. This thread concerns Phenom II vs Vishera. If I want to know which architecture has better compute efficiency, and I mask the difference with a difference in parallelism then I won't have an answer to the question.
Quote:
The fact Vishera can get up to 8 cores on a single die is a part of the architecture,

The core-count limitation is the socket/platform, not the architecture. Parallelism can be approached in many different ways. More sockets, bigger sockets, etc. G34 and 2011 are examples of platforms that use the SAME CORE ARCHITECTURE as the "consumer" counterparts with a lot more cores on the same die. The architecture does not define the maximum parallelism possible for a single die.
Quote:
so crippling one arch by forcing it to limit itself to 6 cores doesn't tell you anything.

Parallelism is not "part of the architecture." It is a consequence (or advantage) within die/socket constraints.
Quote:
You can still compare perf/watt, single thread perf, and multi-thread perf regardless of cores.

Yes, as I have said, we can compare as many cores, vs as few cores as we want, but the results of any such test will not answer the question I have.
Edited by mdocod - 3/5/14 at 11:57am
     
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post #165 of 242
Recently I upgraded from PII x4 965 to PII x6 1045T. I could go with the fx6300 (the price was similar). But I went with 1045T because I like the K10.5 architecture more and I'm experienced with oc'ing this architecture. I bought a new unused chip. The old 965 could go as far as 4.5ghz(passed 3dmark Vantage under win7 x64) to 4.75ghz (win xp x86 passed wprime 1024m) using ice water and 4.4ghz(never crashed on this clock, 4.3ghz was tested to be stable using prime95) on normal water.1045T is able to reach 4ghz however the temps doesn't allow me to go past 3.9ghz because 4ghz needs a little more Vcore to be stable(but got a new waterblock today so in a few days I should be running 4ghz 24/7).I won't be able to go higher because my RipjawsX are barely able to run 300mhz HTT not mentioning higher(and super cheap budget Goodrams could happily run 333mhz without even bumping the volts or changing timings). The 965 was running 100% usage during crysis 3 gameplay(fps was 35-40 so still good) and this was a sign that I need cpu upgrade. 1045T renders movies much faster and it's better during multitasking (a lot of browser tabs,conference skype call,hwmonitor,steam,hamachi and a lot more backround stuff).
Edited by Pawelr98 - 3/5/14 at 12:22pm
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post #166 of 242
Thread Starter 
Whoa, i leave for 2 days and the amount of responses went from the 80s to 160s drool.gif My Phenom II still kicks ass even playing modern games. Thing is, if games wouldn't be supporting 4+ cores, i would of stayed with my Phenom 955 @4.2. Yes, i noticed the Phenom ran BF4 slower than the 8350 ONLY during heavy battles. That is what i noticed from the short amount of time i had the 8350 for a rig i built for a friend.


Am i the only who tells the client (like friend or family member) that you are building a rig that it is going to take an extra day to be ready when in reality i will just use that day to play around with the hardware biggrin.giftongue.gif
    
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post #167 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuy409 View Post

Whoa, i leave for 2 days and the amount of responses went from the 80s to 160s.

Anything involving the new FX chips is a hot topic here on OCN tongue.gif
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post #168 of 242
Quote:
The core-count limitation is the socket/platform, not the architecture. Parallelism can be approached in many different ways. More sockets, bigger sockets, etc. G34 and 2011 are examples of platforms that use the SAME CORE ARCHITECTURE as the "consumer" counterparts with a lot more cores on the same die. The architecture does not define the maximum parallelism possible for a single die.

Those server parts didn't have more cores on the same die, they had two die on a single package. Those server parts were just two 4-module die glued together and communicating via HT. The architecture plays a direct role in how big said die is, as does the process node, so he technically wasn't wrong. K15 was designed with the CMT concept in mind, having two cores in a single cluster so as to save die space compared to the later K8-era parts. Core-count limitation is a result of how efficient your design is (uarch), how big your socket is, and what process node you're on. They're all directly related when everything is considered.
post #169 of 242
I can put a thousand Pentium 4s in a room, make a cluster computer out of them. The Pentium 4 architecture does not prevent nor enable this parallelism.
     
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post #170 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

I can put a thousand Pentium 4s in a room, make a cluster computer out of them. The Pentium 4 architecture does not prevent nor enable this parallelism.

But how do you network them? biggrin.gif

You all talk as if throwing a bunch of cores on a big chip is easy, but it's quite difficult. Just look at all the trouble Intel had with the Xeon Phi and all the predecessors.
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Hyper 212+ with extra fan Windows 10 Education x64 Shimian QH270 @110hz Medieval Dell OEM Keyboard 
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Corsair TX750 V1 Antec 300 Black Illusion  Logitech G400s Xonar ST 
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Fostex T50rp with BMF mod Archer T9E Wifi adapter 2x Yate Loon D12SL-12D 120x38mm fans Thermalright TY-143 fan 
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