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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 11  

post #101 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post

That is pretty much how I see it. It comes down to who overclocks more as to which is better.

My 9590 is running at the stock 5ghz for now until I get some hardware things sorted out and it is almost as fast a a 4770k with a 900mhz overclock in Cinebench. It also performs well in the single thread games I play, and the multi thread games I play are GPU bound because I only have a single 280x.

But there are clear differences....

4770K: 84 watts, $300
9590: 220 watts, $370



on top of that, users will most likely need a beefier PSU if they don't already, to run the 9590, not to mention a more expensive motherboard for running a 220w processor....all of these costs add up.

Let's also not forget that Intel supports triple channel memory, which does offer a significant boost. So I'm still not really seeing how the 9590 comes even close to being more cost effective than a 4770.


You take this same analysis and even compare it to the cheaper 8350, and the 4770K still comes out more cost effective in the long run.


As I said before, and as the facts prove, AMD no longer has price to performance ratio on their side...in any segment.

Gaming is not the only use for PC's either, especially since performance is more determined by GPU than CPU. Even an old Phenom II dual or triple core would be good enough to run all games out there when paired with a high end videocard. You can't take something that relies mainly on GPU performance, and apply it to rating a CPU.

Now if you REALLY want to know the strength of a CPU, You need to focus on CPU rendering benchmarks. And of course, since those also rely on the FPU and integer math and can max out every component of a CPU, they're really good indicators of true performance. Since the FPU is shared in Vishera, this causes a lot of waiting, not to mention over all slower FPU performance. an FPU isn't everything, but if an FPU is crippled, the Integer side suffers by waiting for the FPU. And since only one core can use the FPU at a time, each core must wait for the other on the FPU....on top of the cores already waiting between threads in multithreading. That's A LOT of waiting, which means the CPU's are never physically being fully utilized at the same time....even if you show 100% on all cores. And CPU's being utilized at the same time is kind of the whole point of multithreading.

So it's not just that the FPU is slower, the integer CPU also suffers. This is further proven by the fact that some people actually disable one core in each module of Vishera (effectively turning 8 cores into true quad cores), and see HIGHER performance. This is because the shared resources are rightfully going to one core rather than being split between 2 cores.

I think the most accurate way to think of the 2nd core in the module design of Vishera, is a 'slack' core, that picks up some of the slack and 'does what it can if it can...when it's able'. and the "able" part has a lot to do with the FPU.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/2/14 at 11:34am
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post #102 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

The price argument is definitely true in some cases, especially with the 8320 (I don't even realize why the 8350 vs. i5 is the go to argument on the internet...).

However it's not really as steep as it looks. The problem is that most of the time people only compare the prices of the CPUs.

And the thing with current intels is that you don't need to have a mobo as good as on the AMD side to get max out the chip. And you don't need as much cooling either. PSU needs go down by a bit etc. (and depending on your usage scenario and electricity cost per kwh power costs might be a factor as well)

So once you take those into account the comparison then turns into:

i5: low heat output, MUCH better single thread performance, lower associated costs, higher quality / better feature set mobos

FX: small amount better multithreaded performance, somewhat lower overall price

And then you have to decide which matters more for you personally.


^ that isn't a per clock optimized score either. Upping cache frequency, memory frequency (both really low there) would bring a couple of extra per cent. Or you could get the same score at lower core frequencies by focusing on something other than core.

Even if you did calculate a 4.4GHz (900mhz OC) 4770K score using my poor (relative to other 4770Ks) score/frequency ratio you'd end up with around 900pts which is ~12% faster than the 5ghz Vishera score.

And you really need a dud 4770K for it to max out at 4.4.


How much money have you dumped into your rig? $1000 more than mine costs?

I haven't even started to OC this cpu yet.

AMDATI: Horsepuckey! Your information is just plain wrong.

4770K - $322.99
9590 - $299.99

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=AMD+FX-9590+Eight-Core&id=2014

I already had an 850 watt psu when I was still using intel, so no cost difference there. Also, a 500 watt psu can work with it. I am seeing a max of 460 watts from the wall with mine.

And don't try that cheaper motherboard scam either. Intel boards with the features you want can cost more than their AMD equivalent.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627%20600438204&IsNodeId=1

If electricity costs were a factor I would turn off that big plasma screen tv.
Edited by miklkit - 3/2/14 at 11:37am
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post #103 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post

How much money have you dumped into your rig? $1000 more than mine costs?

I haven't even started to OC this cpu yet.

Good luck, having seen the temps that the OC'ed 9590's reach..
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post #104 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post

How much money have you dumped into your rig? $1000 more than mine costs?

I haven't even started to OC this cpu yet.

AMDATI: Horsepuckey! Your information is just plain wrong.

4770K - $322.99
9590 - $299.99

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=AMD+FX-9590+Eight-Core&id=2014

I already had an 850 watt psu when I was still using intel, so no cost difference there. Also, a 500 watt psu can work with it. I am seeing a max of 460 watts from the wall with mine.

And don't try that cheaper motherboard scam either. Intel boards with the features you want can cost more than their AMD equivalent.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627%20600438204&IsNodeId=1

If electricity costs were a factor I would turn off that big plasma screen tv.

That 9590 price is JUST for the processor itself without ANY heatsink or cooling. Nice try though. It's clear you're manipulating the numbers just to feel better about your buy. The actual minimum cost of a 9590 is somewhere around $370 with the liquid cooling kit....which is pretty much necessary to keep the heat down. You could probably cool it without liquid cooling, but the heatsink would probably be big and as expensive if not more than a liquid cooling system anyways.

so to be accurate:

4770: $309
9590: $370

and you actually can't even find the cooling kit version as of late. So you will have to actually find a cooling kit on your own....which will most likely be more expensive than the bundle. in fact, the H60 liquid cooling kit is $50-65 on its own. So if you bought the 9590 right now, the minimum you would be paying is $330 for the processor itself, and 50-65 for the cooler, giving you a minimum grand total of $380.....and that's before taxes, if they're applicable.

a motherboard for the 4770K can go for $35. For a little more, you can get some better features....but even with the cheapest motherboard, it's still ahead of the 9590 in both price and performance.

so you already had an 800w PSU...that's still a cost you paid. Meanwhile, the 4770 can get by with a 400w PSU AND a newer energy hog videocard. So imagine the money you would have saved by buying a lesser wattage PSU. That still counts in the equation whether you want it to or not, because if you could run something for less wattage, you obviously wouldn't of needed an 800w PSU to begin with.

Energy costs matter, because why not go with a faster CPU that's cheaper over all? If you want to say energy costs don't matter.....then by proxy you're saying money doesn't matter.....which raises the question.....why not go with Intel then if you think it is more expensive....unless of course money does matter.....then we're back to square one: the 4770 is faster and cheaper than the 9590. Your argument loses on either front you try to present.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/2/14 at 12:13pm
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post #105 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

We WERE having a decent discussion until this drivel showed up. rolleyes.gif

An i5 is every bit as budget in the eyes of a high end high performance build as any 6+ core AMD FX. That's the reality of it.

.
this may be true but I made the move from FX6300 to 4670k and the improvement in game was huge. The fx does a fine job until you are no longer GPU bound. After I added SLI there was this studder in all intensive games that changed to smooth as glass when I changed to the 4670k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarazhi View Post

Good luck, having seen the temps that the OC'ed 9590's reach..

Temps is not the correct term. Its is HEAT. Those 8 cores running near 5ghz can warm a room. The cpu and motherboards release crazy amount of heat.
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post #106 of 1593
Seriously guys stop being so mad with AMD they actually make some great products like the APU's and their GPU's their dedicated cpu modules are bad in per core integer and don't do well in fpu per module performance but they are something of the past only frail minded people still think that x86 cpus are the indefinite future while clearly they need more "fusion".


For now however we still need strong x86 and will continue to need it to back up the gpu side of thing and there are only three things on this world that we can really blame for Intel for bribing the OEMs and cutting of AMD's big cash deals, the engineers(however they clearly did their best), the lacking fabs AMD had to work with and maybe the most important one the problems with the Arch having no more room for improvements that made them go towards a module setup in the first place.

I would like to add that the idea of a module with some resources shared is actually a way better idea than Intel's HT could ever become but it will take time and something that clearly did not happen even though it was anticipated and that was the rapid ramp-up of programs that use all the cores available it is clear that resources should always be handled by the OS and never by the program itself. Once all cores can be effectively put to use AMD may ditch their big cores completely as they are hopelessly inefficient compared to their smaller Puma and beyond cores.
post #107 of 1593
i love how the op posts a shot of the fx module design and explains fpu sharing like its something new to everyone. this thread should have been locked on page 1...
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post #108 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

But there are clear differences....

4770K: 84 watts, $300
9590: 220 watts, $370



on top of that, users will most likely need a beefier PSU if they don't already, to run the 9590, not to mention a more expensive motherboard for running a 220w processor....all of these costs add up.

Let's also not forget that Intel supports triple channel memory, which does offer a significant boost. So I'm still not really seeing how the 9590 comes even close to being more cost effective than a 4770.


You take this same analysis and even compare it to the cheaper 8350, and the 4770K still comes out more cost effective in the long run.


As I said before, and as the facts prove, AMD no longer has price to performance ratio on their side...in any segment.

Gaming is not the only use for PC's either, especially since performance is more determined by GPU than CPU. Even an old Phenom II dual or triple core would be good enough to run all games out there when paired with a high end videocard. You can't take something that relies mainly on GPU performance, and apply it to rating a CPU.

Now if you REALLY want to know the strength of a CPU, You need to focus on CPU rendering benchmarks. And of course, since those also rely on the FPU and integer math and can max out every component of a CPU, they're really good indicators of true performance. Since the FPU is shared in Vishera, this causes a lot of waiting, not to mention over all slower FPU performance. an FPU isn't everything, but if an FPU is crippled, the Integer side suffers by waiting for the FPU. And since only one core can use the FPU at a time, each core must wait for the other on the FPU....on top of the cores already waiting between threads in multithreading. That's A LOT of waiting, which means the CPU's are never physically being fully utilized at the same time....even if you show 100% on all cores. And CPU's being utilized at the same time is kind of the whole point of multithreading.

So it's not just that the FPU is slower, the integer CPU also suffers. This is further proven by the fact that some people actually disable one core in each module of Vishera (effectively turning 8 cores into true quad cores), and see HIGHER performance. This is because the shared resources are rightfully going to one core rather than being split between 2 cores.

I think the most accurate way to think of the 2nd core in the module design of Vishera, is a 'slack' core, that picks up some of the slack and 'does what it can if it can...when it's able'. and the "able" part has a lot to do with the FPU.

4770K does not have triple channel memory, its still dual only. You can scour all the benchmarks you want from the web, there is practically no difference when it comes to memory channel for typical usage. Hell even some games run faster on a dual memory channel 4770K than a quad channel system.

You can run a 9590 on a quality 300W PSU, requiring a higher wattage PSU to run a processor is simply more misinformation from you. The only time you need a more "beefier" PSU is when you are using a video card that requires it. Guess what, the same is true for a 4770K too.

Now if you want to focus on the particular weakness of the FX, the FPU, then you have a point. But lets get real here, if my primary work was nothing but rendering, I would not choose a FX8350 or i7 4770K. It would be either a IVY-E or Xeon E-25xx.
post #109 of 1593
I'm not mad a AMD i'm just lost in the Fanboy discussion..

I don't have anything against AMD I will just go with Intel as long as they are faster..
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Quantum
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[Intel] I7-4770K Processor [GigaByte] GA-Z87P-D3 [Asus] 660GTX-DC2 [Corsair] Vengeance 2133MHz 
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[Western Digital] VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS [Western Digital] Who cares it's an optical drive. [Thermaltake] NiC F3 
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[Microsoft] Windows 7 Home Premium [AOC] 2434 [Samsung] UE40ES6545 [Logitech] G110 
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post #110 of 1593
This is all really silly, c'mon...just like any other performance measuring comparasions, there will always be the 1st place loser, especially when you compare apples to oranges, not to mention only 2 competitors. Well, hell let's just make up another CPU boss maker and call it AMnot-gonnaTel, but show you that floating can lead to sinking if you keep beeping. Can you intell amdifference if that rendering is off, or maybe the heatsink is too hot because it wasn't sharing evenly? Ahh..anyways, just saying one uses more than less than the other, and pockets get emptier like all others. $$ is the driving issue.
     
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