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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 110  

post #1091 of 1593
My Thuban to this day doesn't kick up a fuss in any game, and in fact I never experience stutters (except ARMA tongue.gif). FRAPS tells me I get well over 40 FPS, usually 40 or just below is the minimum.

My gameplay is smooth, it can handle a fair amount of AI in strategy games I play (it can handle stupid amount of AI in Men Of War and Company of Heroes).


I don't really see how AMD can't be viable for gaming anyway. I for one have been pretty happy with my systems? And I don't really care my i7 got better FPS because I didn't notice.


It works. And it's funny, benchmarks always show AMD a couple of minutes behind. In modern day processing that's not exactly bad is it. AMD is clearly viable because a few minutes here and there isn't the end of the world; people have the option of a cheaper alternative for slightly lower performance.

A 8-core is great for rendering, and it's cheap. There's the alternative to an i7. An everyday computer for browsing or budget gaming, there's the FX-6300/FX-4300 instead of an I5. There's also their APUs for decent everyday computing (general tasks) instead of an i3 (albeit I can't say much there Kaveri at the moment is stupidly priced. However the A10-6800K is OK priced still).

There is always alternatives for people. It's not about competing it's about viability. And AMD are, because they offer alternatives at different type bands.
post #1092 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

You need to read this: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170023-amd-vs-intel-the-ultimate-gaming-showdown-5ghz-fx-9590-vs-i7-4960x

Seriously I am not getting this blatant biased one sided need to post blatant skewed numbers. At some point you guys are gonna have to let go of this need to prop Intel up, they don't need your help. AMD being VIABLE does not mean that AMD is better than Intel. So it does not require the constant bashing or using such inflated numbers. For every bench you post there is another showing different results going the other way. Alatar you know better than this, or maybe not. Not sure you even game. Only ever seen bench results from you.

My sample size is much bigger, comes from a site that actually lists their test platforms properly, and has the CPUs that are the subject of discussion here. The numbers are not screwed at all, they include every game gamegpu has benched (aside from 1 or 2 articles that were not released before I made the spreadsheet) with both the 8350 and the 4670K/4770K.

One small review of GPU bound situations with the wrong CPUs doesn't change the facts that I posted.

And I do not know what AMD being viable means to you but to me being clearly behind intel's mid range models in performance (since we're talking about gaming here) does mean the FXs aren't mid-high range anymore. And AMD seems to agree with me since their pricing also reflects this.
 
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post #1093 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post


So, you have to choose some terrible Asrock board

Terrible? Terrible you say?

[H] - Gold Award

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/01/29/asrock_z87_killer_fatal1ty_motherboard_review/7#.Uzla_PldUfQ

KitGuru - Worth Buying

http://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/luke-hill/asrock-fatal1ty-z87-killer-motherboard-review/20/

Guru - Great Value

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asrock_z87_fatality_killer_review,20.html

ASRock has made leaps and bounds. Name another Z87 board that can run 3 way 780 Ti's for 115 dollars
Edited by Stay Puft - 3/31/14 at 5:13am
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post #1094 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Sandy actually degrades much easier than haswell. For example for most sandy chips 1.7v is instant death. With haswell it's a bit more complicated. There are a number of voltages that can be cranked too high and there's no way of knowing what actually killed a particular chip in most cases. Haswell only degrades faster if you assume that we should put the same amounts of voltage through it as previous chips. This obviously isn't the case since haswell requires less voltage to hit the clocks that it does.

However, it's really nitpicking to bring up degrading in this case with any architecture. For example with haswell if you stay below say 1.375v vcore, below 2.25v vrin, below 1.2v ring you wont have any problems at all unless you get a dud chip from the beginning. And honestly you wont be using any more voltage than those under 24/7 cooling anyway so higher voltages are mostly a moot point.

I am not sure I catch your drift here, If 1.7 is death for sandy, wouldn't the same vcore kill a haswell chip straight away, or even less, regardless of what's the target freq? Other than that I do see people complaining of eventually losing stability even while staying well below 1.3 vcore. This may be an anecdote (since it is basically their word and only that ) but for an anecdote is quite the persistent one that gives me an impression the true safe o/c ceiling of haswell might actually be quite low. We have in the lab a 2500k that runs happily 4.5Ghz@1.3V since 2011 for example.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 3/31/14 at 4:19am
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post #1095 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You know full well that this is completely garbage...

Haswell has about 20-25% OCing headroom. And that's for 24/7 usage, not suicide runs with too much voltage. In order to reach the same OC levels a 9590 (which you keep wanting the review sites to use in benches to mislead people into thinking that the AMD chips actually stand a chance) would have to reach 5.7-5.9GHz. For 24/7 usage. Not possible.

Since most OCNers are gamers, and since the 8350 and the haswell's have about the same amount of OCing potential I'll post this here one more time:



For gaming with current high end GPUs a 4670K is on average 20% faster than a Vishera CPU. And a 4770K is on average 25% faster than a Vishera CPU. Whether that difference is worth it to you is your own decision. But to pretend that the difference is not there is just being in denial and worse, is misleading towards people who have not looked into this as much as we have.



tl;dr 8350 and haswells have about the same OCing headroom. 4670K 20% faster in gaming, 4770K 25% faster in gaming.

That graph is absolute garbage. I think you should really stop posting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
All decent hardware review sites use Intel processors for their game benchmarks and reviews of pretty much anything unless they are comparing Intel vs AMD in a specific situation. Even AMD themselves have told reviewers to use Intel processors to show their latest video cards in the best way possible. These two facts alone confirm the statement of this thread, AMD is no longer viable in the mid to high end.

AMD's flagship processor, the 8350 is under $200 because they are clinging to the low end to survive. Their $200+ FX processors are just pre-overclocked 8350s for suckers.

Watching a handful of AMD diehards twist numbers and situations is really saddening. "Benchmarks aren't trustworthy unless AMD matches or wins. Biased forum reviews are more valuable, again, only if their bias is with AMD. AMD "feels" smoother, there is no proof to this but its a thing, i promise."

Seriously, stop it.

To both of you; whats with the lame obsession over amd anyway? Are you guys really that disappointed/bored with intel? Is it a comfort in numbers thing? The sentiments that are being spewed here by ya'll (and every other non-owner) is NOT a sentiment shared by owners of both (ex. Alatar).

I mean, guys, Intel doesn't need you to pump them up. They can give 2-craps about their cheerleaders, so please, stop it already.

Your opinions were heard pages ago, this really isn't the place to to beat that emotional drum over and over again. People are happy and doing fine with AMD. Whats the big deal? Get over it already.
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post #1096 of 1593
I don't think single process gaming benchmarks have any more viability for desktop pcs because a tablet can do the same whether somebody accepts it, or not. In order to make duly use of what x86 provides, you have to be streaming real time, also. In another phrasing, pcs are only good if you are going to individualise your gaming in which case, TEK Syndicate has some interesting information for the audience.biggrin.gif
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post #1097 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

My sample size is much bigger, comes from a site that actually lists their test platforms properly, and has the CPUs that are the subject of discussion here. The numbers are not screwed at all, they include every game gamegpu has benched (aside from 1 or 2 articles that were not released before I made the spreadsheet) with both the 8350 and the 4670K/4770K.

One small review of GPU bound situations with the wrong CPUs doesn't change the facts that I posted.

And I do not know what AMD being viable means to you but to me being clearly behind intel's mid range models in performance (since we're talking about gaming here) does mean the FXs aren't mid-high range anymore. And AMD seems to agree with me since their pricing also reflects this.
No it is you playing with numbers. Remember that NVIDIA bench? You griped so hard about the clock they locked it to, arguing it was too low or some such. You have no issue with benches till it doesn't meet your criteria. Yet here you are all but certain to back a bench simply because this time it does. I have shown numerous benches that show otherwise, not to prove yours wrong, but rather to prove yours nor mine are all inclusive.

Again are you gonna say that link I posted is blatantly false? Or is it simply that it doesn't back the claims you made so it must be?
Edited by Durquavian - 3/31/14 at 4:55am
post #1098 of 1593
I built a rig for a friend this weekend using a $40 msi h81 p33 mobo with 4670k($209) 8GB RAM($52) 120GB SSD($70)and a 7870($170). He wanted the k incase the upgrades mobo later.

Coming in under $650 total. He has multiple upgrade paths. He can upgrade mobo to overclock or slide up to 4770.

That mobo only has pcie 2.0 but it still would not bottlneck any gpu. Mobo plus 4670k was a total of $249. Thats just as cheap as 8320+990chipset mobo.

The fx8320 + 990chipset will need an aftermarket cooler to compete. It will compete after overclocked to 4.7-4.8ghz. The cost of the 8320 build in this situation would be more.

It would take a cheaper 970 mobo or even a 78lmt mobo paired with a fx6300 to beat that cost and include the cooler. Also as you step down the mobo it can affect overclocking potential as vrms get weaker.

Amd rigs are fine in many/most situations.

This friend of mine plays the new beta by soe called EQ next. He could care less about the specs. Which is why such a cheap mobo is ok. He just wanted his games to play.
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post #1099 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

I am not sure I catch your drift here, If 1.7 is death for sandy, wouldn't the same vcore kill a haswell chip straight away, or even less, regardless of what's the target freq? Other than that I do see people complaining of eventually losing stability even while staying well below 1.3 vcore. This may be an anecdote (since it is basically their word and only that ) but for an anecdote is quite the persistent one that gives me an impression the true safe o/c ceiling of haswell might actually be quite low. We have in the lab a 2500k that runs happily 4.5Ghz@1.3V since 2011 for example.

That's the thing with sandy, once you start upping the voltage it dies really easily. 1.7v is not death for haswell even though 1.7v is often death for SB even on LN2. I've put 1.9v through my haswell on LN2 and it's perfectly fine and doesn't show any signs of degrading.

And as for the 1.3v stuff, again as I said, with haswell there are a bunch of voltages that can degrade the chip. 1.3v vcore will not do it (unless you have a defective chip) so in those cases it's much more likely that it was some other voltage that the person OCing the chip raised too high. Or that the CPU was ran at 100C+ at high voltages for a long time. Anyway ring voltage for example needs to be kept quite low just like IMC voltages on previous platforms. And even then the amount of chips that will die or degrade is extremely small. Just like with any other CPU release.

Haswell OCing is not bad and the potential isn't small. It's just that people got used to the ridiculously simple SB/IB OCing and when haswell didn't OC by simply upping vcore and multi you heard reports of it OCing very badly. Haswell will become temp limited before it is voltage limited unless you're using phase like I am. It does not degrade on (core) voltages that water coolers can handle during stress tests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

That graph is absolute garbage. I think you should really stop posting it.

It's a spreadsheet of 23 most recently released games benched on high end GPUs using the CPUs we are discussing in this thread. And it comes from a reputable site.

There's nothing garbage about it. In fact, when it comes to this discussion topic that might be the most relevant spreadsheet you can have.

And it favors AMD too since it doesn't actually list old titles, just new ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

No it is you playing with numbers. Remember that NVIDIA bench? You griped so hard about the clock they locked it to, arguing it was too low or some such.

I had an issue with it because I do not like purposefully downclocking GPUs or CPUs for real world reviewing purposes.

No crippling of the hardware has happened in the tests posted in this thread.
Quote:
You have no issue with benches till it doesn't meet your criteria. Yet here you are all but certain to back a bench simply because this time it does. I have shown numerous benches that show otherwise, not to prove yours wrong, but rather to prove yours nor mine are all inclusive.

Your example has a couple of games and they're pretty much all GPU bottlenecked. And on top of this it's comparing a part with little to no OCing headroom to a part with plenty of OCing headroom.

And most importantly of all; my spreadsheet has a ton of data in it. 23 most recent games, not only the gaming evolved and TWIMTBP games, but all sorts of games from MMOs, to fps games.
Quote:
Again are you gonna say that link I posted is blatantly false? Or is it simply that it doesn't back the claims you made so it must be?

No it's not false. However

-It's comparing 4.7-5.0 Vishera to Ivy bridge (I wouldn't compare OC haswell against Bulldozer, why are you comparing Vishera to last gen intel architectures)
-the CPUs used aren't the ones we're discussing
-The sample size is extremely small
-games that are used are all GPU bottlenecked
-CPUs used in the tests all have different amounts of OCing headroom

All in all the review you keep posting is about as relevant to the situation as this one: http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/11/03/amd_fx8150_multigpu_gameplay_performance_review/2#.Uzlg8vl_tqA

Meaning that it isn't relevant because nothing there is the same as the stuff we're discussing here. It's not false no, however it's not really relevant either for obvious reasons.

Mainstream haswell vs. Vishera with similar OCing headroom is what we need to see here. That's a fair and representative comparison. What your review is comparing is pre-built 9590 vs. IB-E how that's relevant to discussions about mid-high range intel hardware on an overclocking forum I do not know.
Edited by Alatar - 3/31/14 at 5:44am
 
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post #1100 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post

I built a rig for a friend this weekend using a $40 msi h81 p33 mobo with 4670k($209) 8GB RAM($52) 120GB SSD($70)and a 7870($170). He wanted the k incase the upgrades mobo later.

Coming in under $650 total. He has multiple upgrade paths. He can upgrade mobo to overclock or slide up to 4770.

That mobo only has pcie 2.0 but it still would not bottlneck any gpu. Mobo plus 4670k was a total of $249. Thats just as cheap as 8320+990chipset mobo.

The fx8320 + 990chipset will need an aftermarket cooler to compete. It will compete after overclocked to 4.7-4.8ghz. The cost of the 8320 build in this situation would be more.

It would take a cheaper 970 mobo or even a 78lmt mobo paired with a fx6300 to beat that cost and include the cooler. Also as you step down the mobo it can affect overclocking potential as vrms get weaker.

Amd rigs are fine in many/most situations.

This friend of mine plays the new beta by soe called EQ next. He could care less about the specs. Which is why such a cheap mobo is ok. He just wanted his games to play.

Cheap mobo needs also many many other things like sata,fan controller,vrm but with the stock cooler and the intel 4k isn't it very loud? I think most people has already a decent aftermarket cooler, isn't? Not fair comparison?
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LG DVD-RW DH16A1L 140 mm Cooltek fan Noctua NF-P12 premium fan Noctua NF-P12 premium fan 
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140 mm Cooltek fan 140 mm Cooltek fan Coolermaster Seidon M120 140 mm Cooltek fan 
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XSPC 420 reservoir and pump Antec Kühler 920 Phobya G-Silent 12 Phobya G-Silent 12 
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Samsung 240T Loudspeaker Onboard SATA Y power cable 2x Y 3-pin power cable 
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4x S-ATA cable black 50 cm 12volt 4x 3-pin power cable adapter 
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Western Digital Caviar Blue Hitach LC Power Cosmo Cool LC-CC95 Arctic Cooler F9 PWM 
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Turion 64 X2 Ultra  SB 700 series HD 3650 HD 3200 
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Windows 8 LG Flatsscreen PS/2 compatible PS/2 compatible 
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Crayemulator
(34 items)
 
HTPC
(14 items)
 
Laptop
(20 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX-6100 Asus Sabretooth 990FX rev 2.0 Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X Vulcan DDR3 2400 Orange Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Western Digital Western Digital Samsung Seagate Barracuda 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
LG DVD-RW DH16A1L 140 mm Cooltek fan Noctua NF-P12 premium fan Noctua NF-P12 premium fan 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
140 mm Cooltek fan 140 mm Cooltek fan Coolermaster Seidon M120 140 mm Cooltek fan 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC 420 reservoir and pump Antec Kühler 920 Phobya G-Silent 12 Phobya G-Silent 12 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Windows 8.1 Professional OpenSuSE 12.2 22" LG Flatron W2243T Keysonic 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Be quiet! Straight Power E6 (700W) Corsair Carbide 400R Logitech Gaming Mouse Case Logic Gel-eez 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Samsung 240T Loudspeaker Onboard SATA Y power cable 2x Y 3-pin power cable 
OtherOther
4x S-ATA cable black 50 cm 12volt 4x 3-pin power cable adapter 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom 550 2x Biostar TA870+  ATI Radeon HD 4300 Noname Ram 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Western Digital Caviar Blue Hitach LC Power Cosmo Cool LC-CC95 Arctic Cooler F9 PWM 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Arctic Cooler F8 PWM Windows 7 Ultimate 27" Acer Noname 
PowerOther
Enermax Pro87+ 500 Watt  3.5" 1.44 MB disk drive  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Turion 64 X2 Ultra  SB 700 series HD 3650 HD 3200 
RAMRAMHard DriveOptical Drive
Komputerbay Noname Samsung Spinpoint M8 Sony DVD/DV-RW TS-L633A 
OSMonitorKeyboardMouse
Windows 8 LG Flatsscreen PS/2 compatible PS/2 compatible 
AudioOtherOtherOther
AMD High Definition Audio Device Bluetooth Adapter Winbond CIR Transceiver IEEE 1394 Firewire 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Qualcomm Atheros AR928X wireless JMicron PCIe MS/SD/MMC/xD Host Controller Realtek PCIe GBE  Logitech 1.3 M WebCam 
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