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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 124  

post #1231 of 1593
Quote:
Haswell typically has 10-15% better IPC than Sandy, but adding HT to a Sandy can easily average 25%+ gains in well threaded tasks. In general, a 4670k is not an upgrade over a 2600k.

I would argue that it was an upgrade for a video encoding + gaming system - on the grounds that most games don't scale well with HT, many CPU bound games will prefer the singlethreaded performance - and on the basis that x264 encoder scales well onto Haswell and uses avx2 instructions, which means that even with average OC advantage, you can't really beat a 4670k using a 2600k for that load, at least not significantly


The IPC gains from Sandy to Haswell for x264 (i think most common + best video encoder right now) are bigger than the gains from HT, in particular with avx2 giving another ~5% there, but you can clock sandy higher (maybe 48x with the ease of 45x on Haswell? I don't think higher clocks were THAT easy and common on average level chips) which helps there, but we're quite clearly i think at the point where you can't claim a 2600k to be superior to a 4670k for video encoding
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post #1232 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

I remember a time when people were more prudent and actually discouraged pairings that would be CPU/GPU limited.

For gaming builds, I'm generally careful to do this. I look at a GPU that will give the performance I want, then find the CPU I need to reliably feed it.

However, not all tasks are demanding on both CPU and GPU. I used to run my 3930k with a single 6950, because I mostly wasn't gaming on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

I would argue that it was an upgrade for a video encoding + gaming system - on the grounds that most games don't scale well with HT, many CPU bound games will prefer the singlethreaded performance - and on the basis that x264 encoder scales well onto Haswell and uses avx2 instructions, which means that even with average OC advantage, you can't really beat a 4670k using a 2600k for that load, at least not significantly


The IPC gains from Sandy to Haswell for x264 (i think most common + best video encoder right now) are bigger than the gains from HT, in particular with avx2 giving another ~5% there, but you can clock sandy higher (maybe 48x with the ease of 45x on Haswell? I don't think higher clocks were THAT easy and common on average level chips) which helps there, but we're quite clearly i think at the point where you can't claim a 2600k to be superior to a 4670k for video encoding

x264, popular as it is, is still an exception to the rule. AVX2 is barely utilized at this point, and when it is utilized it's often still not as much of a boost as HT.

Still, you are correct, that for most games, and x264 encoding, a non-HT Haswell is generally an upgrade over Sandy. I can think of several situations where this is not the case, however.
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post #1233 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

For gaming builds, I'm generally careful to do this. I look at a GPU that will give the performance I want, then find the CPU I need to reliably feed it.

However, not all tasks are demanding on both CPU and GPU. I used to run my 3930k with a single 6950, because I mostly wasn't gaming on it.
x264, popular as it is, is still an exception to the rule. AVX2 is barely utilized at this point, and when it is utilized it's often still not as much of a boost as HT.

Still, you are correct, that for most games, and x264 encoding, a non-HT Haswell is generally an upgrade over Sandy. I can think of several situations where this is not the case, however.

The gains from avx2 are only ~5% for x264, as opposed to nearly 100% for synthetic tests, it's still a decent proc all round, just harder to keep up in multithreaded loads against a CPU that's clocked higher and also has HT if that load only benefits from some architectural advancements

4670k is my really solid go-to for gaming/encoding, i think it's hard to break that if you plan to play games where CPU choice actually matters
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post #1234 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

For gaming builds, I'm generally careful to do this. I look at a GPU that will give the performance I want, then find the CPU I need to reliably feed it.

However, not all tasks are demanding on both CPU and GPU. I used to run my 3930k with a single 6950, because I mostly wasn't gaming on it.
x264, popular as it is, is still an exception to the rule. AVX2 is barely utilized at this point, and when it is utilized it's often still not as much of a boost as HT..

When building a gaming system, the GPU should always go to 100% before the CPU....in any performance range.


A 30% boost in FPS with the same GPU is very significant......enough to justify even extra cost with the increase in performance and longevity. It's actually a small price considering you'll have the PC for about 25%-40% longer before needing to replace it completely. Heck, even overclocking rarely brings anywhere near a 30% boost. So if you for example had a triple crossfire, that 30% boost would essentially be like a quad crossfire. that's a pretty penny saved. $100 extra on CPU can literally save you $200 on a GPU in that scenario.

Like I said before.....if a CPU saves you just 5 minutes a day for 3 years, you will have saved 96 man hours. At just $5 an hour spent working in that time, you will have made nearly $500, which is almost enough to buy a 3930k, on top of what you originally spent for the CPU.
Edited by AMDATI - 4/4/14 at 5:50pm
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post #1235 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

When building a gaming system, the GPU should always go to 100% before the CPU....in any performance range.


A 30% boost in FPS with the same GPU is very significant......enough to justify even extra cost with the increase in performance and longevity. It's actually a small price considering you'll have the PC for about 25%-40% longer before needing to replace it completely. Heck, even overclocking rarely brings anywhere near a 30% boost. So if you for example had a triple crossfire, that 30% boost would essentially be like a quad crossfire. that's a pretty penny saved. $100 extra on CPU can literally save you $200 on a GPU in that scenario.

I still haven't found anywhere in this thread where you list your definition of Mid-High End.....

This thread has some great info buried under all the crap surrounding it.
 
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post #1236 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

I still haven't found anywhere in this thread where you list your definition of Mid-High End.....

This thread has some great info buried under all the crap surrounding it.

I've listed it quite a few times, and I think it's more than fair but it does come with some caveats.
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post #1237 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

4670k is my really solid go-to for gaming/encoding, i think it's hard to break that if you plan to play games where CPU choice actually matters

No disagreement here, but buying one to replace a 2600k is still stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

When building a gaming system, the GPU should always go to 100% before the CPU....in any performance range.

I agree, hence my selection of GPU first.
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post #1238 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

I've listed it quite a few times, and I think it's more than fair but it does come with some caveats.

then can you list it again?
 
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post #1239 of 1593
Quote:
No disagreement here, but buying one to replace a 2600k is still stupid.

I agree tongue.gif
Quote:
When building a gaming system, the GPU should always go to 100% before the CPU....in any performance range.

Thaaat.. depends on the type of games you're trying to run. In sc2, ps2, WoW, guild wars 2 etc, this won't happen during stressful times. Out of all of the games that deal with a lot of units/players, few of them run great and few are gpu bound in heavy stress situations
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/4/14 at 6:05pm
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post #1240 of 1593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

then can you list it again?

AMD:

Lower Mid: 6XXX
Mid: 8XXX
High: 9XXX

But the problem for AMD is that it tops out a 9XXX while Intel tops out its high end at its 6 core's. Which means compared to what's on the market today, Intels mid range is AMD's high end, especially when it comes to gaming since many games only use 4 cores.....and will continue to do so for some time, and even 4 of Intels cores can be faster than 8 of AMD's, making the gap still there even if games used all 8 cores. And by the time games start using 8 cores, AMD's 8XXX and 9XXX processors will be considered low end for the time, meaning they're going to suffer greatly in performance compared to what's available in the same price range.

So most people are actually only getting quad core gaming performance out of their 8 core systems. Of course the extra cores help with some background stuff....but they still don't make up for more powerful individual cores intel has. So when buying an 8 core processor, you're really only getting a quad core gaming experience, and the extra threads only come in handy if you're physically assigning cores to other stuff for background work....like for example, assign 4 cores to a game, 2 cores to windows, and 2 cores to a transcoding........but how realistic is that usage scenario? If I'm gaming, typically that's all I want my machines resources to be devoted to, with some room for any small common background tasks. It's funny, because FX 8 core chips aren't actually gaming chips, not by design anyways. They're designed more like server chips. i.e. low strength threads but more of them. the FX series is a server chip pretending to be a desktop/workstation CPU...the only difference between FX and Opteron is primarily power usage.....and Opterons typically are more expensive than Xeons while also being much slower at the same price points.

See, the 8 core chips would actually be great for stuff like CAD rendering, because these programs will use all the cores, but since there's only one FPU per module, it's severely crippled in even this usage scenario because CAD rendering on the CPU relies heavily on the FPU. So it has too many cores for gaming, too few FPU's for CPU rendering....and to top it off, no one does CPU video transcoding because it's been faster on the GPU for several years. So it doesn't really excel at anything in particular.
Edited by AMDATI - 4/4/14 at 6:26pm
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