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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 15  

post #141 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

To answer the bolded question, there are more players who enjoy MMOs, RTSs, mobas etc. than there are those who just want gaming evolved titles.

Even if you only sometimes play say star craft or wow etc. you'd be better off with an i5 and especially an i7.
I called it a placebo because no one had any proof to back up the claim.

Not the case with my claim.
Lol, UD3 good all the way to LN2. How about no. It can't handle the power draw at full load with those frequencies and voltages.

Also there may be some FX chips that can do 4.8 with a good cooler. Most definitely wont. I wont go around saying that my 4770K is average, and claiming that you can do 4.5ghz on the stock cooler. There are worse chips out there, and there are definitely Visheras that can't do 4.8 on a mediocre board with a cheap cooler. And there are a lot of them.
Yes but most of those MMOs are played on old archaic hardware, laptops even and then most of these arguments are moot. I have played WoW for 8 years, stopped a year ago, and it played great on my AMD systems. No lag in 40man groups with a 965BE nor my 8350, both paired with a XFX 6770.
post #142 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

To answer the bolded question, there are more players who enjoy MMOs, RTSs, mobas etc. than there are those who just want gaming evolved titles.

Even if you only sometimes play say star craft or wow etc. you'd be better off with an i5 and especially an i7.

http://www.g4tv.com/games/top-100-pc-games/

Looking at this list above, WOW ranks 10th and Star Craft ranks 12th. The top 5 titles are;

-Need for Speed Most wanted

-Star Wars: The Old Republic

-Defiance

-Call of Duty Black OPS 2

-and Diablo 3

All newer titles (2011-2013). IIRC, AMD CPUS handle all these games well.

But the point remains; even in situations where people have come in here asking for advice on a gaming rig, (even Gaming Evolved Titles) you're usually in there kicking, screaming, and hollering "INTEL." Usually without taking into consideration the more significant part of any gaming rig..... THE GPU!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I called it a placebo because no one had any proof to back up the claim.

I wouldn't expect someone who desperately clings and resorts to hand picked benchmarks, as the end-all be-all, to be open minded and/or rational. But don't you think it means something when you have many-a-members here telling you that Intel is simply NOT worth the extra cash in most cases (myself included)? Why do you chose to make a conscious decision to not place any value in the Users experience? Is it an ego thing? There is a "real-world experience" value to damn near everything from cars to smartphones. I don't see why it is so difficult to comprehend.

Using your rationale, Porsche and Apple should have seized to exist a long time ago, and frankly, have no place in society because, on paper, they just dont have anything to offer over the competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Lol, UD3 good all the way to LN2. How about no. It can't handle the power draw at full load with those frequencies and voltages.

Ehhh, how 'bout yes. Some of these even put your own results to shame, and all on a measly $130 motherboard.

http://hwbot.org/submission/2329725_hicookie_cpu_frequency_fx_8350_8470.74_mhz

http://hwbot.org/submission/2463122_i.nfrar.ed_cpu_frequency_fx_9370_8189.81_mhz

http://hwbot.org/submission/2430117_remnant_cpu_frequency_fx_8350_7504.13_mhz

http://hwbot.org/submission/2466519_dacosa_superpi___1m_fx_9370_14sec_500ms

http://hwbot.org/submission/2265196_gnidaol_superpi___1m_fx_8150_14sec_835ms



http://hwbot.org/submission/2426675_zorchthatcpu_superpi___1m_fx_8150_14sec_578ms



http://hwbot.org/submission/2313094_ivanov_cpu_frequency_fx_8120_6809.96_mhz




Yes, not the board of choice I know. But IT CAN be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


No... Just, no.

4.5 maybe. 4.8 if all you play is lightly threaded games and don't do any actual work. But that cooler is crap and will not do 4.8 IBT AVX without starting a fire... Motherboard is fine, but trying to say a shoddy single-tower single-fan 120mm air cooler can do 4.8 is just wrong... I've seen a lot of people try to claim this and they've all ended up wrong when true load was applied to the CPU.

Also UD3s cap out at 4.8 too normally, which is OK since most chips cap out there too as well as most non-custom loop top-end cooling. But it is not made for LN2 duty. You get a CHV-FZ for that, hands down.
No. The Rev 1.0 had no LLC, but every revision after that was fine. Rev 1.1 had a bit of vBoost, Rev 3 had a pretty shoddy BIOS, and Rev 4 looks ugly, but they are all fine for overclocking.

Their VRM cooling is sub-standard for 4.8Ghz+ though, especialy Rev 1.1. Just bolt a small fan to the VRM sink.

Actually..... YES..... Just yes.

Want to know what cooler is absolute garbage? The CM 212+ Evo. I bought into the hype surrounding that crappy cooler and I couldn't be more disappointed. That is how I came across this cooler. After giving the 212 away, I came across the Zalman during christmas time. It was $10 after MIR from TD. It easily out-performed the EVO, and much to my surprise, ran 36 minutes of Prime 95 Blend without breaking 51 degrees on my test bench. (8320 @ 4.8Ghz, 1.464V Load) I think I still have the video I recorded to show a friend. I can show it to you if you'd like. For $30 + some PK-1 TIM, it just cant be beat.

Ill try IBT when I get a chance and post results.
Edited by 2advanced - 3/3/14 at 4:50am
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post #143 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

What the hay, I might as well get involved. This whole thread is flame bait to begin with and quite an ignorant take at that. First you are looking at this all wrong to begin with as far as 220 vs 84......

I was wondering when the "voice of reason" would arrive.
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post #144 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I own both:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

and unless you have a specific task that can utilize an FX better there's no reason to get one.

I mean let's be real here, the only reason FXs would be "preferable" as you say, would be if you just personally found OCing and tweaking them fun.

Other than that (for the mostly gamer crowd on OCN) you're going to get better mobo features, more consistent and most of the time higher performance, lower power consumption (= low heat output, cooler requirements, mobo requirements), etc. if you go with an i5.

Change that i5 to an i7 and instead of performing better most of the time you'll have a CPU that performs better 97% (or something similar) of the time.

Problem with FX as gaming CPUs is consistency. FXs just aren't cut out for consistency. Sure they hang with the i5s in well threaded games like BF4 and look good in GPU bound benches where every CPU made in the last 4 years is on par but once you hit a game that can't utilize many threads so well you can well have your performance cut in half compared to an i5 or an i7. That may be an acceptable thing for an AMD enthusiast but it sure as hell isn't a good value proposition.
Ok lets be REAL. Fact as has been noted by so many over so many of these threads is that everyday gaming and usage it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. You bench mostly and yes there is a difference there, in results mostly, seeing how there is no productivity involved.

I always keep it real and honest so let me show you guys how. Seeing most use a single monitor @1080p then any, yes ANY current CPU will suffice. The bigger issue, especially for gamers is the GPU. And stay honest, 60hz is the refresh rate of most of these monitors. A 43xx AMD or i3 can give a great experience in gaming with these qualifiers. And these apply to most, the lions share, of gamers.

Now lets speak to the extreme gamers and the like. Yes then it becomes a bit smaller as far as options. These guys run multi-monitors with multiple GPUs to run them and generally multiple programs while playing. At this point only the top AMD offerings of 8350/20/9590 will do and even then they have their limits. Intel has the better options but the 4770/3770 and the other 20 that sit in that range for Intel are in the same boat as the aforementioned AMDs, leaving just the 6cores from Intel as the only options (could be more, my knowledge of all Intel offerings are limited).

For business Intel becomes the only option, but it isn't their arch so much that makes it so but the software ie:ICC. And the power usage does become a factor here and obviously Intel is a no brainer for that as well.

THIS IS THE REAL AND HONEST ANSWER.
post #145 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

I too own both, yet, I couldn't disagree with you more. I feel the ONLY reason to go Intel is if you have the budget to do so, or have plans of Multi-GPU setups. This whole "90% of games perform better on intel therefor you should avoid amd" blanket statement only shows the level of blind bias floating around here. The important questions is, just how many people are playing these games? How exactly would somebody playing BF3, BF4, Crysis 3, Dirt Showdown, Tomb Raider etc benefit from an i5/i7 over an 8320?

To answer the bolded question, there are more players who enjoy MMOs, RTSs, mobas etc. than there are those who just want gaming evolved titles.

Even if you only sometimes play say star craft or wow etc. you'd be better off with an i5 and especially an i7.
Quote:
Could you yourself be suffering from that same placebo effect? You always seem to have an "excuse" or "reason" to discount any review that doesn't jive with your opinions....

I called it a placebo because no one had any proof to back up the claim.

Not the case with my claim.
Quote:
Wow! Could you be more wrong? This is just flat-out mis-information.

Gigabytes 990FXA-UD3 is $130 and is SOLID all the way up to LN2 duty. Pair that with a $20 Zalman Optima air cooler and you're set for 4.8Ghz.

Lol, UD3 good all the way to LN2. How about no. It can't handle the power draw at full load with those frequencies and voltages.

Also there may be some FX chips that can do 4.8 with a good cooler. Most definitely wont. I wont go around saying that my 4770K is average, and claiming that you can do 4.5ghz on the stock cooler. There are worse chips out there, and there are definitely Visheras that can't do 4.8 on a mediocre board with a cheap cooler. And there are a lot of them.

I have posted some proof of why its possible that it's not just a placebo effect as you put it, but you chose to ignore it.

My post with the cinebench scores as an example. I ran the benches, and lo and behold - scoring exactly the same as the example 3770K listed on the scoreboard prior to my run. I then went on to out perform the 3770K with my 8350 at 4.7 ghz and 5.0ghz to simulate a 9370 and 9590. The stock 8350 lost very slightly, however the simulated 9XXX's pretty much laid the wood to the 3770k's scores.

If the 8 core Vishera isn't viable, then the 3770k is even less so.

If you want to focus on single thread performance that's fine , but the reality is that it isn't "all important" these days because of how most people normally use their rigs. One look at the application and process tabs in task manager should reveal that.


There are plenty of people who see the same way I do about AMD "feeling" faster and not just in the Vishera club.

I've seen Intel owners say those exact words at least twice in the last few days in other forums on this site one of them by Hatchet Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchet View Post

I currently own both a haswell & vishera CPU.

1. I wouldn't bother with the FX 9x90 series. Save your money and just get a FX 8320. Overclocking results are largely identical.

2. The 4770k beats the FX series in pretty much every performance category, and performance/watt.

3. What AMD does have going for it, is price/performance. The 8320 is often times over $150 cheaper than then 4770k.

My advice, unless you are on a tight budget, get the 4670/4770k. I like my 8320 rig. As odd as it sounds, it almost "feels" faster sometimes. But all the numbers support haswell, across the board.

It's a legitimate phenomenon, I don't think it's fair not to at least acknowledge it as being such.
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post #146 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

Actually..... YES..... Just yes.

Want to know what cooler is absolute garbage? The CM 212+ Evo. I bought into the hype surrounding that crappy cooler and I couldn't be more disappointed. That is how I came across this cooler. After giving the 212 away, I came across the Zalman during christmas time. It was $10 after MIR from TD. It easily out-performed the EVO, and much to my surprise, ran 36 minutes of Prime 95 Blend without breaking 51 degrees on my test bench. (8320 @ 4.8Ghz, 1.464V Load) I think I still have the video I recorded to show a friend. I can show it to you if you'd like. For $30 + some PK-1 TIM, it just cant be beat.

Ill try IBT when I get a chance and post results.

No, not IBT. You'll need IBT AVX. Way more stressful, and way hotter. At least 10 runs on Very High.

IBT AVX

At 4.8 if you get under 80GFLOPs or a negitive result, you're unstable/throttling. I should say 90GFLOPs which is the norm, but I'm being generous. Don't forget to run HWiNFO64 and include it in the screenshot showing CPU speed, voltages, and CPU/Motherboard temps.

That's the standard we hold.
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post #147 of 1593
As for the games talked about earlier, most of them run poorly regardless of hardware.
AC 3 for example, guys in this thread are complaining about poor fps , owners run from X3 AMD's to this guy Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Taken from here :http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/727583-Assassin-s-Creed-III-fps-drop-in-Boston-Forums
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post #148 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Overall performance it is really the ultimate low/mid end laptop part if it scales as good as it did from 4.0GHz to 3.1GHz it may even match Intel's i3 cpu performance/watt in the mobile segment.
I layed down the problems AMD's cpu have which is what this thread is about it isn't even the post benches with numbers everyone has already seen and say that Intel is better thread.

I don't buy it, if we are talking about CPU performance/watt.

If you are including the IGPs, then perhaps this could be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Most of the I5s out there are simply wasted, sitting there twiddling their thumbs with no work to do. The only reason why gamers (note: Purely for gaming I mean) buy it is because of their strong IPC, single threaded performance is superb.

Quad core is probably the sweet spot for a pure gaming CPU. Yes, many games will do well with two fast cores, but a large number of existing games will take advantage of three or four.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Seeing most use a single monitor @1080p then any, yes ANY current CPU will suffice. The bigger issue, especially for gamers is the GPU. And stay honest, 60hz is the refresh rate of most of these monitors. A 43xx AMD or i3 can give a great experience in gaming with these qualifiers. And these apply to most, the lions share, of gamers.

Now lets speak to the extreme gamers and the like. Yes then it becomes a bit smaller as far as options. These guys run multi-monitors with multiple GPUs to run them and generally multiple programs while playing. At this point only the top AMD offerings of 8350/20/9590 will do and even then they have their limits. Intel has the better options but the 4770/3770 and the other 20 that sit in that range for Intel are in the same boat as the aforementioned AMDs, leaving just the 6cores from Intel as the only options (could be more, my knowledge of all Intel offerings are limited).

For business Intel becomes the only option, but it isn't their arch so much that makes it so but the software ie:ICC. And the power usage does become a factor here and obviously Intel is a no brainer for that as well.

I generally agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

There are plenty of people who see the same way I do about AMD "feeling" faster and not just in the Vishera club.

Do you seriously doubt that there are at least as many people who will claim their Intel setup feels faster?

Such inexplicable anecdotal statements are useless without numbers to back them up. Most cases probably are placebo and those that aren't are probably due to differences in configuration or maintenance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

I have posted some proof of why its possible that it's not just a placebo effect as you put it, but you chose to ignore it.

What proof? A Cinebench score? What does that have to do with feeling faster in general use? Either the part is faster in a given scenario, or it's not. There is nothing that can't be measured.
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post #149 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Overall performance it is really the ultimate low/mid end laptop part if it scales as good as it did from 4.0GHz to 3.1GHz it may even match Intel's i3 cpu performance/watt in the mobile segment.
I layed down the problems AMD's cpu have which is what this thread is about it isn't even the post benches with numbers everyone has already seen and say that Intel is better thread.

I don't buy it, if we are talking about CPU performance/watt.

If you are including the IGPs, then perhaps this could be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Most of the I5s out there are simply wasted, sitting there twiddling their thumbs with no work to do. The only reason why gamers (note: Purely for gaming I mean) buy it is because of their strong IPC, single threaded performance is superb.

Quad core is probably the sweet spot for a pure gaming CPU. Yes, many games will do well with two fast cores, but a large number of existing games will take advantage of three or four.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Seeing most use a single monitor @1080p then any, yes ANY current CPU will suffice. The bigger issue, especially for gamers is the GPU. And stay honest, 60hz is the refresh rate of most of these monitors. A 43xx AMD or i3 can give a great experience in gaming with these qualifiers. And these apply to most, the lions share, of gamers.

Now lets speak to the extreme gamers and the like. Yes then it becomes a bit smaller as far as options. These guys run multi-monitors with multiple GPUs to run them and generally multiple programs while playing. At this point only the top AMD offerings of 8350/20/9590 will do and even then they have their limits. Intel has the better options but the 4770/3770 and the other 20 that sit in that range for Intel are in the same boat as the aforementioned AMDs, leaving just the 6cores from Intel as the only options (could be more, my knowledge of all Intel offerings are limited).

For business Intel becomes the only option, but it isn't their arch so much that makes it so but the software ie:ICC. And the power usage does become a factor here and obviously Intel is a no brainer for that as well.

I generally agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

There are plenty of people who see the same way I do about AMD "feeling" faster and not just in the Vishera club.

Do you seriously doubt that there are at least as many people who will claim their Intel setup feels faster?

Such inexplicable anecdotal statements are useless without numbers to back them up. Most cases probably are placebo and those that aren't are probably due to differences in configuration or maintenance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

I have posted some proof of why its possible that it's not just a placebo effect as you put it, but you chose to ignore it.

What proof? A Cinebench score? What does that have to do with feeling faster in general use? Either the part is faster in a given scenario, or it's not. There is nothing that can't be measured.

It seems I've touched a nerve.

I don't doubt it in the least that others feel differently and I respect that as others should respect my viewpoint.

Well some people are trying to say that AMD isn't viable, I really can't think of a situation where it isn't viable. I posted scores proving stock Vishera's to be faster than a stock 3770k. Fair minded people wouldn't have a problem accepting that , people that think otherwise always seem to reveal themselves.

If it's true that there is nothing that can't be measured, you should have no problems proving your side of the discussion, good luck smile.gif
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post #150 of 1593
The amd builds are great for budget setups. The 6/8 cores can smoke the comparable priced intels sub $200. Thats where it stops though. The 9 series doesnt make sense to me. I can see a pure enthusiasts buying those 9series but thats about it.



I really enjoyed the 6core fx chips I had. They overclocked like mad. Its just hard to stay true to amd when they leave much to be desired compared to intels after the $200 mark.

Even if 8core can beat 4670k and even 4770k at a few things. It does so with trade offs.
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