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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 141  

post #1401 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

A NH-D14 is better than most CLC coolers ,yet you're trying to say a FX 83xx can't be used with a NH-D14 when you're basing your assumptions from a older FX-8150.

Where did I mention "most" CLCs? Where did I make an assumption based on an FX-8150? No where, and no where.

I specifically said top-end CLCs (meaning the best 240mm and 280mm solutions), and I have experience with multiple samples of the NH-D14 on multiple samples of Bloomfield, Gulftown, Sandy Bridge, SB-E, Ivy-E, Deneb, Thuban, Zambezi, and Vishera.

An NH-D14 is a very good cooler, but Intel hex cores and AMD octo cores can easily reach it's limits. It does not move more than 200-250w very well.
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post #1402 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

A NH-D14 is better than most CLC coolers ,yet you're trying to say a FX 83xx can't be used with a NH-D14 when you're basing your assumptions from a older FX-8150.

Where did I mention "most" CLCs? Where did I make an assumption based on an FX-8150? No where, and no where.

I specifically said top-end CLCs (meaning the best 240mm and 280mm solutions), and I have experience with multiple samples of the NH-D14 on multiple samples of Bloomfield, Gulftown, Sandy Bridge, SB-E, Ivy-E, Deneb, Thuban, Zambezi, and Vishera.

An NH-D14 is a very good cooler, but Intel hex cores and AMD octo cores can easily reach it's limits. It does not move more than 200-250w very well.
A 4670k is 180€ and a fx-8320 is 130€ here in Europe. It's exactly 30% difference.
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post #1403 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recursion View Post

A 4670k is 180€ and a fx-8320 is 130€ here in Europe. It's exactly 30% difference.

The CPU's have roughly a 30% difference in price here as well, but that's not the point.

A CPU needs other parts to make a system, and when looking at the same total system cost, the Intel platform will typically be faster, unless you are foolishly over-engineering the build.

I can get away with much less cooling and much lower end board with a Haswell than I can with a Vishera. This completely erases the price differential of the CPUs.
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post #1404 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recursion View Post

A 4670k is 180€ and a fx-8320 is 130€ here in Europe. It's exactly 30% difference.

FX-8320 needs a high-end cooling solution to reach a decent overclock, so add 60€. 4670K can overclock well even on a 20€ cooler.

FX-8320 needs a motherboard with good VRMs, at least an Asus M5A99FX Pro. The 4670K uses much less power and has no such motherboard requirements. You could easily save 20-30€ on the motherboard with a 4670K and still be able to overclock well.

So factoring in total cost of motherboard, cooler, and CPU, the FX-8320 is more expensive than the 4670K.
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post #1405 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

FX-8320 needs a high-end cooling solution to reach a decent overclock, so add 60€. 4670K can overclock well even on a 20€ cooler.

FX-8320 needs a motherboard with good VRMs, at least an Asus M5A99FX Pro. The 4670K uses much less power and has no such motherboard requirements. You could easily save 20-30€ on the motherboard with a 4670K and still be able to overclock well.
The 4670K still runs hot due to the bargain bin thermal paste Intel used under IHS to save them a few cents.
You're acting as if a $130 Asus M5A99FX Pro is a huge investment (even though you have a $200+ board in your sig and a $85 air tower similar to the NH-D14) if you want real overclocks on the 4670K you'll want something in that price range as well for the ease of overclocking and the feature set + more PCI-E lanes.
I wouldn't call 4.2Ghz "overclocking well" ,which is the number you and Blameless have been tossing around on the previous page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recursion View Post

A 4670k is 180€ and a fx-8320 is 130€ here in Europe. It's exactly 30% difference.
It's a bit over 30% here. Throw in a $30 212Evo and you can get 4.5Ghz as long as your room isn't a sauna like mine.
Intel crowd seems to justify otherwise claiming they can OC on $50 mobos and stock coolers,because everyone on OCN totally does that lol.
Edited by Heavy MG - 4/5/14 at 8:14pm
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post #1406 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

The 4670K still runs hot due to the bargain bin thermal paste Intel used under IHS to save them a few cents.
You're acting as if a $130 Asus M5A99FX Pro is a huge investment (even though you have a $200+ board in your sig) if you want real overclocks on the 4670K you'll want something in that price range as well for the ease of overclocking and the feature set + more PCI-E lanes.
I wouldn't call 4.2Ghz "overclocking well" ,which is the number you and Blameless have been tossing around on the previous page.
It's a bit over 30% here. Throw in a $30 212Evo and you can get 4.5Ghz as long as your room isn't a sauna like mine.
Intel crowd seems to justify otherwise claiming they can OC on $50 mobos and stock coolers,because everyone on OCN totally does that lol.

people only buy more expensive motherboards because they give better overclocking results.....but when cheap motherboards perform just as well, there's really no need to go more expensive unless you're looking for specific features like crossfire, which can be had in cheap boards nowadays too. I've used both a $100 gigabyte ultra durable 3 with the extra copper layer, and I've used a cheapo $40 foxconn board, both with the same AMD CPU. The difference in temps in the same case is pretty much non existent (which means all that extra copper does jack squat but making your PC a lighting rod). But the foxconn board only overclocks 60% as much, and needs more voltage.

Another issue with overclocking, especially in AMD processors, is wattage. You're not overclocking an 8320 much on a 125w board. It takes 220w just for the 9XXX to reach its clock rate, and it's just a better binned re badged 8XXX. So you're definitely not reaching 9XXX levels without the appropriate motherboard, even if you've got the appropriate cooling.

With overclocking, it always goes like this; buy a 95w processor.....get a 125w board.

And in the grand scheme of things, all that extra wattage you have to pump into FX just to get an extra miniscule amount of performance, just isn't worth the trouble and cost.
Edited by AMDATI - 4/5/14 at 8:23pm
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post #1407 of 1593
If price is considered the range delimiter, what is the mid-range price?

Here's an idea
Lets do a build-off based soley on the common concepts discussed in this thread.

Community vote based - Mid/Range Upper cost limit for mobo/proc/cooler.
Community vote based - Intel Mobo/Proc/Cooler conforming to that limit
Community vote based - AMD Mobo/Proc/Cooler conforming to that limit

I'll fund one of the builds.
I'm a noob/basic overclocker anyways so would be a good representative of the average user.
thumb.gif
post #1408 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

people only buy more expensive motherboards because they give better overclocking results.....but when cheap motherboards perform just as well, there's really no need to go more expensive unless you're looking for specific features like crossfire, which can be had in cheap boards nowadays too. I've used both a $100 gigabyte ultra durable 3 with the extra copper layer, and I've used a cheapo $40 foxconn board, both with the same AMD CPU. The difference in temps in the same case is pretty much non existent (which means all that extra copper does jack squat but making your PC a lighting rod). But the foxconn board only overclocks 60% as much, and needs more voltage.

Another issue with overclocking, especially in AMD processors, is wattage. You're not overclocking an 8320 much on a 125w board. It takes 220w just for the 9XXX to reach its clock rate, and it's just a better binned re badged 8XXX. So you're definitely not reaching 9XXX levels without the appropriate motherboard, even if you've got the appropriate cooling.

With overclocking, it always goes like this; buy a 95w processor.....get a 125w board.

And in the grand scheme of things, all that extra wattage you have to pump into FX just to get an extra miniscule amount of performance, just isn't worth the trouble and cost.
Some of us want a reliable motherboard as well,I'm not saying a Foxconn board is bad,you just may as well get something decent like even a MSI for a few dollars more. You're buying a $240 CPU,why buy a $50 board that has few features if any and like 2 USB 3.0 ports?

There are AMD 970 chipset boards out there that are sub $100 motherboards,same thing as the 990FX except you don't get the dual X16 slots. Even needing SLI or CFX in that kind of price bracket is puzzling to me. Plenty of VRM power on the Asus M5A97 R2.0 for 4.5Ghz, squeaking out a few 100 more Mhz isn't necessary with most programs these days,as your're right on one thing,it just creates unnecessary heat. The FX 9xxx series isn't just a "binned and rebadged" 8xxx you get several new instruction sets that 8xxx does not have. Not much overclocking on a 125W. board? The Gigabyte 990FXA club for example,a lot of people are putting large OC's on their chips with even the UD3 If Intel sold a 5Ghz CPU no one would be complaining that it can't run on a stock cooler or their $50 motherboard. You've gotta admire the double standards, lol. You seem to think overclocking doesn't raise the TDP for Haswell,too bad that it does though.
Overclocking is what this forum is about,and OC'ing even a 8320 brings it to performance levels to something that costs nearly double,yeah must be really miniscule.
Edited by Heavy MG - 4/5/14 at 8:55pm
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Moar cores!
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post #1409 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

You're not overclocking an 8320 much on a 125w board.

No, of course not.. rolleyes.gif
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post #1410 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

So those benchmarks i ran meant what exactly?
Well if anything You guys and possibly some gals should be thanking Sgt Bilko for his input and time to usher a few bench results to you for your perusal. If anything he is showing that AMD can offer Highend end results and is capable of pushing dual 290s. And that brings up the point of discussion: Is AMD viable for mid-to-high end? And as a number of us have said: YES.

Price - has nothing to do with it.

Power Usage - has nothing to do with it.

Heat Output - has nothing to do with it.

Intel - yeah that's right: Has Nothing To Do With It.

It is the end result. Like a car running the quarter mile at the local drag strip. The cost of it getting a 120mph quarter doesn't change its speed. Nor does what the other car did. It is the time it needs to reach to qualify that matters. And here thanks to Sgt Bilko we have proof that AMD can be a mid-to-high end system. I feel even with my 7870 equivalent cards I am high-mid end.
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