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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 153  

post #1521 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papas View Post

Gigabyte GA-MA770T-UD3P AMD770. Purchased 7/19/2009 and running 24/7 since. So I guess that's 4.5 years.

Man, boards from that era... They look like they should have a massive Peace symbol stamped on the back.
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post #1522 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The 970A-UD3P is an extremely good contender in the "$100 or less" category, and you literally can not buy a intel motherboard that would allow i5K+MB to be cheaper than 8320+MB. If Microcenter gets involved then 8320 + 970A-UD3P is cheaper than even an on sale 4670k at the same store.

Also the intel would be sucking down a lot more than 100w if OC'd as much as an AMD chip drawing 300w. While I'm sure you understand this, this thread is filled with just the wrong people to make these kinds of statements in, even as an example. Several people would take this literally, and use it to bash.

Wait, is the ud3p at sub 100$ there? Cause it actually is a good choice, essentially the same as the 990fx ud3r4 on the power delivery side.

The intel processor would still draw much less than the fx though, even when overclocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papas View Post

Gigabyte GA-MA770T-UD3P AMD770. Purchased 7/19/2009 and running 24/7 since. So I guess that's 4.5 years.

Edit:I've done the side by side test hundreds of times. To overclockers, everyday people, business owners, computer techs and not one could tell the difference between an i7 920 rig and a phenom x6 rig. Later I used an i5 and a a8 rig. I'm not talking a out guessing right. I'm talking about knowing what rig is what.

I did this all the time with customers that would come in demanding an Intel rig over an amd.

Yup, that's a good board. Can't say anything about it. VRM heatsinked or empty topped?

But that's old man, it's not really for current processors. xD
Edited by PsyM4n - 4/7/14 at 11:04pm
post #1523 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The 970A-UD3P is an extremely good contender in the "$100 or less" category, and you literally can not buy a intel motherboard that would allow i5K+MB to be cheaper than 8320+MB. If Microcenter gets involved then 8320 + 970A-UD3P is cheaper than even an on sale 4670k at the same store.

Also the intel would be sucking down a lot more than 100w if OC'd as much as an AMD chip drawing 300w. While I'm sure you understand this, this thread is filled with just the wrong people to make these kinds of statements in, even as an example. Several people would take this literally, and use it to bash.

Wait, is the ud3p at sub 100$ there? Cause it actually is a good choice, essentially the same as the 990fx ud3r4 on the power delivery side.

The intel processor would still draw much less than the fx though, even when overclocked.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128651
http://www.microcenter.com/product/421052/GA-970A-UD3P_Socket_AM3_AMD_ATX_Motherboard

MicroCenter also has $40 off the Motherboard when bought with a Piledriver chip, and the 8320 is only $130 there, totaling out to $180 (plus applicable tax) for an 8320 and 970A-UD3P. $10 cheaper than just a 4670k.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/33
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/34

^ Microcenter catalog, relevant pages.
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post #1524 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The 970A-UD3P is an extremely good contender in the "$100 or less" category, and you literally can not buy a intel motherboard that would allow i5K+MB to be cheaper than 8320+MB.

The UD3P does look like a promising value option. I haven't tried it yet myself, however. My vanilla UD3 is also pretty well regarded, yet insufficient. Still the P looks like it may have a slightly stronger VRM.

Even if the UD3P is sufficient, you still need to cool the processor. The stock cooler is not bad, but it's not going to get you very far, and you need to go pretty high to make Vishera really compete in most areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Also the intel would be sucking down a lot more than 100w if OC'd as much as an AMD chip drawing 300w.

A ~4.2GHz 4670k with the IGP disabled is rarely going to crack 100w in Prime95 or LinX.

How high do you think an FX-8320 would have to be to match the performance of a 4.2GHz 4670k? How much power would it consume at that point? My Zambezi cracked 300w in Prime95 at about 4.3GHz, the 8-core Visheras I've played on made it to around 4.6GHz before breaking 300w. Is a 4.6GHz Vishera more often a better performing CPU than a 4.2GHz Haswell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

While I'm sure you understand this, this thread is filled with just the wrong people to make these kinds of statements in, even as an example. Several people would take this literally, and use it to bash.

The point remains that I can go out and build a system containing a 4670k, a 70 dollar ASRock H85 motherboard, using stock CPU cooling, and in the end it will be neither appreciably more expensive, nor slower than the closest equivalent on the AM3+ platform.
Edited by Blameless - 4/7/14 at 11:17pm
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post #1525 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post


Most people who are paying more than 80 dollars for an LGA-1150 board are paying to much. Only very specific uses really justify more.
There are definitely some virtualization tasks that I would rather be running an 8-core FX for than a 3570T, even if I had to rule out OCing to keep costs similar.
Being a professional doesn't mean one is made of money. My wife has a doctorate and often does heavy duty bioinformatics work on her system, which is the same system she plays demanding games on. She's got loans to pay off, and the postdoc she's doing doesn't pay exceptionally well (more than worth it for the experience and great benefits though).

Likewise, most of my systems are very multi-functional. I play games, but not enough to justify a dedicated gaming system that isn't efficient in other tasks. My primary system needs to be able to do all of my wife's bioinformatics work in the case something happens to the other system, as well as my own work, and cover my entertainment needs.
I don't see many on OCN with sub $80 motherbaords for their SB/IB/Haswell rigs. When you're overclocking something you'd want to spend a bit extra on the board as no one likes downtime from a flaky motherboard
If you have the need for a workstation grade rig, you can probably afford a separate PC for gaming/general use,but that's just my 2 cents. If I needed a workstation machine I'd rather not risk any of my work by using it for games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

There are non-Z87 LGA-1150 boards that do allow overclocking adjustments with current Haswell CPUs. Biostar, ASRock, and ESC (though I avoid the latter like the plague) all have H8x boards that can OC K parts.
It's likely that the new stepping of Haswell parts won't be overclockable on these, but for now, you can.
http://www.asrock.com/news/index.asp?cat=News&ID=1461
http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/news/news.php?S_ID=173
Both companies have boards in the 60-80 dollar range that can OC just fine.
A Phenom II X4 is far short of FX 8-core power consumption.
The Phenom II X4's actually consume quite a lot of power at 4Ghz. I'd have to doubt a Haswell with a significant overclock would only draw 100 watts though.
The B85/H87 overclocking just sounds like a BIOS hack from Asock and Biostar? I would rather get a motherboard that would allow full overclock potential as Haswell doesn't have the same OC capability as SB/IB. I know you think it's a waste of money but,since you're spending $249 on a CPU you may as well get a quality motherboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Wait, is the ud3p at sub 100$ there? Cause it actually is a good choice, essentially the same as the 990fx ud3r4 on the power delivery side.

The intel processor would still draw much less than the fx though, even when overclocked.
Yup, that's a good board. Can't say anything about it. VRM heatsinked or empty topped?

But that's old man, it's not really for current processors. xD
It still proves that you can have a cheap AMD motherboard reliably power an AMD setup for years. An AMD 970 based motherboard isn't going to get you to 5Ghz,but some cheap Intel board isn't going to either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128651
http://www.microcenter.com/product/421052/GA-970A-UD3P_Socket_AM3_AMD_ATX_Motherboard

MicroCenter also has $40 off the Motherboard when bought with a Piledriver chip, and the 8320 is only $130 there, totaling out to $180 (plus applicable tax) for an 8320 and 970A-UD3P. $10 cheaper than just a 4670k.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/33
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/34

^ Microcenter catalog, relevant pages.
I really wish I had a Microcenter within reasonable driving distance,although the GA-970A-UD3P on sale on Newegg isn't that bad of a deal either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papas View Post

Gigabyte actually. Let's just settles this. And octa plus mb is cheaper then i5 plus same quality mb. And unless your benchmarking, you will never tell what system is what.
Depends of the situation,do any of your customers request any comparison of CPU limited tasks?
Edited by Heavy MG - 4/7/14 at 11:26pm
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post #1526 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128651
http://www.microcenter.com/product/421052/GA-970A-UD3P_Socket_AM3_AMD_ATX_Motherboard

MicroCenter also has $40 off the Motherboard when bought with a Piledriver chip, and the 8320 is only $130 there, totaling out to $180 (plus applicable tax) for an 8320 and 970A-UD3P. $10 cheaper than just a 4670k.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/33
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/34

^ Microcenter catalog, relevant pages.

Well, that's a very good deal. If not running something like a small 24/7 server or emulators, or sli/cfx with 600$ gpus there's no reason to go intel over that. Even when you can afford it. You won't be bottle-necked. Even if you do use one of the above and are bottle-necked it's still a good deal.

Too bad these prices rarely go out of the US. The same setup is like 300$ withing EU.
post #1527 of 1593
My 8320 runs fine my 2x 290 in every game i throw at it i don't think a low mid range cpu can do that, the 8320 is in the same level of a 4670k in price and performance the 4770k is another story
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post #1528 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

The Phenom II X4's actually consume quite a lot of power at 4Ghz.

They do, but not FX-eight core levels, at least not when both are OCed proportionally.

I remember my 4GHz Deneb being around 200w peak load, pretty comparable to Bloomfield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

I'd have to doubt a Haswell with a significant overclock would only draw 100 watts though.

Try it yourself.

If you clock right up to the point just below where you start needing more voltage to be stable, you aren't going to see huge power consumption increase. Intel TDP rating are pretty generous and includes the IGP. A 20-25% OC is only going to increase power consumption by about 25%, and you are likely to be starting from 60-70w actual load consumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

The B85/H87 overclocking just sounds like a BIOS hack from Asock and Biostar?

Essentially.

Intel charges a premium on the Z series chipset for arbitrary features, however, unlike the non-K CPUs which have physical changes to prevent them from OCing, H series boards cannot physically touch anything that has anything to do with CPU multiplier, it's just the firmware detecting the microcode and disabling certain features, or leaving the multiplier control out of the firmware entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

I would rather get a motherboard that would allow full overclock potential as Haswell doesn't have the same OC capability as SB/IB.

This is rather backwards. Haswell has less OC potential that some earlier parts because of the CPU itself, not the board. Haswell limitations make a higher end board more trivial, not less.

To really take advantage of a high-end board for OCing purposes, you need to delid your Haswell and probably go for sub-ambient cooling.
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post #1529 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The 970A-UD3P is an extremely good contender in the "$100 or less" category, and you literally can not buy a intel motherboard that would allow i5K+MB to be cheaper than 8320+MB.

I haven't used the UD3P but I do have a 970A-UD3, which appears to have the same VRM components. It's not what I call a good contender for 8-core FX OCs. My Sabertooth 990FX R2.0 does much better with my FX-8150 and the FX-8350 I've used, both in OCing potential, and in board temperatures. I can OC on the 970A-UD3P, but it's noticeably limited relative to better boards.

Even if the UD3P is sufficient, you still need to cool the processor. The stock cooler is not bad, but it's not going to get you very far, and you need to go pretty high to make Vishera really compete in most areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Also the intel would be sucking down a lot more than 100w if OC'd as much as an AMD chip drawing 300w.

A ~4.2GHz 4670k with the IGP disabled is rarely going to crack 100w in Prime95 or LinX.

How high do you think an FX-8320 would have to be to match the performance of a 4.2GHz 4670k? How much power would it consume at that point? My Zambezi cracked 300w in Prime95 at about 4.3GHz, the 8-core Visheras I've played on made it to around 4.6GHz before breaking 300w. Is a 4.6GHz Vishera more often a better performing CPU than a 4.2GHz Haswell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

While I'm sure you understand this, this thread is filled with just the wrong people to make these kinds of statements in, even as an example. Several people would take this literally, and use it to bash.

The point remains that I can go out and build a system containing a 4670k, a 70 dollar ASRock H85 motherboard, using stock CPU cooling, and in the end it will be neither appreciably more expensive, nor slower than the closest equivalent on the AM3+ platform.

The UD3P takes it's VRMs form the Rev 4 lineup. It's good. And stock cooler will at least get the 8320 to 4.0. Not much farther, but it's something.

You buy an 8320 for multithreading. Not much to take out an i5. If you're buying an FX 8-core for single-thread work you're doing it very very wrong. I will not defend AMD's chips from a single thread point of view, but the 8 cores add up quickly, especially in VM duty as you noted earlier. And if multithread was not that important, why not get a 6300? Cheaper, less power draw, and as a result of less power draw, significantly more headroom.

I assume you mean B85 or H87, there is no H85. Anyway, I'm looking at these ASRock B85 motherboards, and I'm noticing a trend... I understand your argument that you don't really need quality for a minimal overclock, but come on, at least the UD3P even resembles quality. If I really did have to go that low on the quality chain I'd point at the 970 Pro3 or Extreme3, which are in the same price range as your $70 intel boards. This whole argument screams to me like people in the 8300 club who are so desperate for their 212+ to hang with the big boys and it just can't. The boards in that price range are simply not good, and it isn't just the power delivery I'm concerned about at that point, it's the whole motherboard.

Regardless, I would NEVER recommend any of the motherboards you are pointing to for intel for anyone thinking of making an actual computer, unless it's job is to be a file server or something. Why? Same reason I do not recommend Diablotek PSUs or Aprevia cases. If they are that strapped for money, I would build them one of my $650 (with Windows) Kaveri mITX rigs, which are honestly badass, tiny, silent, and barely sip power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128651
http://www.microcenter.com/product/421052/GA-970A-UD3P_Socket_AM3_AMD_ATX_Motherboard

MicroCenter also has $40 off the Motherboard when bought with a Piledriver chip, and the 8320 is only $130 there, totaling out to $180 (plus applicable tax) for an 8320 and 970A-UD3P. $10 cheaper than just a 4670k.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/33
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cdfca72f#/cdfca72f/34

^ Microcenter catalog, relevant pages.

Well, that's a very good deal. If not running something like a small 24/7 server or emulators, or sli/cfx with 600$ gpus there's no reason to go intel over that. Even when you can afford it. You won't be bottle-necked. Even if you do use one of the above and are bottle-necked it's still a good deal.

Too bad these prices rarely go out of the US. The same setup is like 300$ withing EU.

Mmm, I can understand prices being different and thus influencing purchase decisions. I pay $0.11 per KWh here, so even power consumption isn't a big deal. I know some people who pay nearly 5 times that, forcing their hand into buying things like the 4560S.

There really should be some ground rules for arguments of this sort, like "how much does everything cost" and "what do you pay for power", to keep the information relevant.
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post #1530 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

It still proves that you can have a cheap AMD motherboard reliably power an AMD setup for years. An AMD 970 based motherboard isn't going to get you to 5Ghz,but some cheap Intel board isn't going to either.

Sure it can. It's the voltage regulator that matters, not the nb or sb. That posted gigabyte board can keep up, even as high as 5GHz. The same goes for some cheap intel boards like z87 g43.

I had no clue about the 970 ud3p. Even when the new FX came out I never saw it sold anywhere and it's a pity cause from the looks of it, it's a good board. Maybe it got out recently, but it would make no sense, the new fx are already one year old and have no known replacement scheduled on the same socket... getting out a new board would make no sense... but still, it's a welcome addition.

See, I work with facts, forming an opinion based on them. Problem is, only two people did counter my arguments using facts so far, the rest are just blabbering that I'm a fan-boy who's wrong.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Mmm, I can understand prices being different and thus influencing purchase decisions. I pay $0.11 per KWh here, so even power consumption isn't a big deal. I know some people who pay nearly 5 times that, forcing their hand into buying things like the 4560S.

There really should be some ground rules for arguments of this sort, like "how much does everything cost" and "what do you pay for power", to keep the information relevant.
Yeah, there are so many things to take into account. Deciding on an approach was suggested sometimes already, but quite evidently, this was blatantly ignored.
Edited by PsyM4n - 4/7/14 at 11:54pm
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