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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 33  

post #321 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post


Ok, you've brought the cost of supporting equipment in to the mix as something we are really concerned about.

This is a very difficult point to take seriously from a person that has a $400 motherboard and a $1200 phase change unit in their sig.

You also made the a very broad statement in that we don't care about stock performance here, I actually do. It's the reality most of my customers will experience.

Another broad statement about I7's performing better at stock, I've already posted benchmark scores that prove that's not always the case. Hwbot prime , passmark and cinebench vs a 3770K for examples.
The 9590 and 4770k are 16 points apart on passmark http://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=2014&cmp[]=2&cmp[]=1919
I don't have a 4770K and would welcome stock scores for comparison to my simulated stock 9370 and 9590 cinebench scores.

You also posted proof that the I7 doesn't always outperform the 9590 at stock.
Notice the scores in this picture. The 9590 has a higher average fps than the 4770k here.

The 9370 is also putting in a solid performance there, bigger gap than i expected between it and the 8350.

Easily comparable to the 4670k in that scenario considering they are the same price here.

Yes, for the $219 I gave for mine at newegg with a clc included it's proven to be a good value for me thumb.gif
It would be a good option for the non-overclocker , wouldn't it?
EDIT: anyone know why they showed the 9370 below the 2600k and 4670k when it has the same minimum fps but higher averages than they do?
Edited by cssorkinman - 3/9/14 at 6:42am
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post #322 of 1593
Stock is extremely important because overclocking is never guaranteed. Also overclocking doesn't guarantee suitable temperatures meaning you'll need to buy an aftermarket cooler in order to sustain the temperature.

Then noise comes into play. When looking at a CPU upgrade you should always look towards the lowest performance expected rather than assuming it'll overclock to a specific frequency.

So yes, stock is very important smile.gif overclocking is always a gamble so I don't think it's fair to base benchmarks and results off OC'd scores.

FX-9000 series is stock, however it does require some hefty cooling and strong VRMs (meaning an expensive motherboard)

Stock is where Intel does come into it's own however. Only problem is the chipset, if you go for a cheaper chipset (like the business chipsets) you'll find there are features missing.
post #323 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

The 9370 is also putting in a solid performance there, bigger gap than i expected between it and the 8350.

Easily comparable to the 4670k in that scenario considering they are the same price here.
Cant remember what you run 24/7 on your 8350 but most of us found 4.7Ghz and up gave a considerable jump in performance. Like it was a different chip. There are also so many factors in how any chip will perform.

When I first got this 8350 I did the common Multi OC and went straight for 4.6Ghz. I noticed that windows login was slower than at stock. Had a hunch but needed to test more. So I went FSB/Multi to match 4.6 and got better performance. Unfortunately CPU-NB Multi does not seem to work on this MSI board so I cant keep it stock speeds so cant test if that was solely the difference in performance but it was there. Now when I hit 4.8Ghz, BAMM insta-porformance. So I would expect that 4.7Ghz or higher is gonna have a huge lead over 4.0Ghz in any Vishera benchmark.
post #324 of 1593
I'm not even going to address the point about my personal equipment. It has nothing to do with the argument here. However it's somewhat telling that that would be the argument you choose to counter my point about cost on stock systems. "you use expensive stuff thus you can't argue price/performance".

Anyway, if your "customers" care about stock performance then isn't the i7 system clearly the better deal? At least for the people who do not use their stock CPU for hwbot prime?

i7 stock:
-performs better in games on average
-much cheaper
-runs cool
-has both good singe thread and multithread performance

9590:
-performs worse in games on average
-more expensive overall
-puts out tons of heat
-has poor single thread performance but good multithread performance.

Please do not tell me that because they're on par in passmark, the FX wins in hwbot prime and because in one BF4 bench they're about on par the FX is a better choice. Because clearly it is not. If you're actually telling your customers that the FX is the better choice then I feel bad for the customers.

If your customers buy their PCs for hwbot prime only then disregard the statement above.

And since you do not wish to address the overclocked argument I assume that you agree with me that the FXs can't hold a candle to the intels in that regard.


Here are the gaming facts:

Once OC'd:

i5 and i7 are clearly faster than the FXs overall
FXs are a bit cheaper than i5, clearly cheaper than i7

Stock:

i5 and i7 are a bit faster than the FXs overall
i7 and especially i5 are CLEARLY cheaper

What's there not to like? And more importantly why in the world would you recommend an FX system for a gamer with these facts in mind? Because it manages 3 more avg fps but lower minimums in one BF4 benchmark?


I honestly do not understand the mentality and rationale behind buying an FX for gaming.
Edited by Alatar - 3/9/14 at 6:54am
 
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post #325 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Yes, for the $219 I gave for mine at newegg with a clc included it's proven to be a good value for me thumb.gif
It would be a good option for the non-overclocker , wouldn't it?

For $220 it's a bargain, the 9370 and 4670k are both $280 here and the 9590 and 4770k are within $5 of each other ($395 and $400 respectability)

I know people that own 4770k's and never overclock them, i also know people that own 9590's because they didn't want the hassle of overclocking an 8350 or 9370. so i'd say both stock and overclocked values are valid points.

If we are going to argue price as well then i'd guess we need to take motherboards into account as well.
Top Tier AMD board would be a CVF-Z or a UD7 (around $300 AUD),
Mid Tier would be a M5A99FX-PRO or UD3 ($180 AUD) vs the Socket 1150 offerings Maximus VI Extreme or MSI Z87 XPOWER ($500 AUD).
Mid Tier Z87-PRO or GA-Z87X-UD5H ($300)

It all adds up in the end.
 
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post #326 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Yes, for the $219 I gave for mine at newegg with a clc included it's proven to be a good value for me thumb.gif
It would be a good option for the non-overclocker , wouldn't it?
EDIT: anyone know why they showed the 9370 below the 2600k and 4670k when it has the same minimum fps but higher averages than they do?
I KNOW< I KNOW Is it because they love Intel more? Alphabetical order? Not that. Numerical order? Nope doesn't seem to be that either.
post #327 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I honestly do not understand the mentality and rationale behind buying an FX.

Because, the FX-8320 costs twice as less as an i7, and 1.5x less than the i5.
    
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post #328 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Cant remember what you run 24/7 on your 8350 but most of us found 4.7Ghz and up gave a considerable jump in performance. Like it was a different chip. There are also so many factors in how any chip will perform.

When I first got this 8350 I did the common Multi OC and went straight for 4.6Ghz. I noticed that windows login was slower than at stock. Had a hunch but needed to test more. So I went FSB/Multi to match 4.6 and got better performance. Unfortunately CPU-NB Multi does not seem to work on this MSI board so I cant keep it stock speeds so cant test if that was solely the difference in performance but it was there. Now when I hit 4.8Ghz, BAMM insta-porformance. So I would expect that 4.7Ghz or higher is gonna have a huge lead over 4.0Ghz in any Vishera benchmark.

i run 4.8 for 24/7. It is a considerable jump but as Mike suggested, it's not a guarantee.

I was leaning towards the 9370 to start with but decided oc'ing the 8350 would be much more fun biggrin.gif
 
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post #329 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Bilko View Post

For $220 it's a bargain, the 9370 and 4670k are both $280 here and the 9590 and 4770k are within $5 of each other ($395 and $400 respectability)

I know people that own 4770k's and never overclock them, i also know people that own 9590's because they didn't want the hassle of overclocking an 8350 or 9370. so i'd say both stock and overclocked values are valid points.

If we are going to argue price as well then i'd guess we need to take motherboards into account as well.
Top Tier AMD board would be a CVF-Z or a UD7 (around $300 AUD),
Mid Tier would be a M5A99FX-PRO or UD3 ($180 AUD) vs the Socket 1150 offerings Maximus VI Extreme or MSI Z87 XPOWER ($500 AUD).
Mid Tier Z87-PRO or GA-Z87X-UD5H ($300)

It all adds up in the end.

You do not need an aftermarket cooler and a high end-ish mobo to run a 4770K at stock. But you do need those for running a 9590 at stock.

This means that a stock 4770K system is much cheaper than a 9590 system while offering more performance in games. (on average)

If you overclock the i7 system is obviously going to outperform the 9590 system by a wide margin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

I KNOW< I KNOW Is it because they love Intel more? Alphabetical order? Not that. Numerical order? Nope doesn't seem to be that either.

gamegpu.ru order is always determined by minimum fps, if the min fps is the same it's pretty much random what they'll do.
 
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post #330 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You do not need an aftermarket cooler and a high end-ish mobo to run a 4770K at stock. But you do need those for running a 9590 at stock.

This means that a stock 4770K system is much cheaper than a 9590 system while offering more performance in games. (on average)

If you overclock the i7 system is obviously going to outperform the 9590 system by a wide margin.
gamegpu.ru order is always determined by minimum fps, if the min fps is the same it's pretty much random what they'll do.

Still, If i wanted to build a Top AMD Rig then thats a 9590 and CVF-Z ($700AUD) vs a Top Intel rig 4770k and Maximus VI Extreme ($900 AUD)

That leaves me $200 AUD for a high end CLC or Custom Water.......

EDIT: I'm also using the 9590 as a comparison here even though you don't see the point in doing so considering the 8350's overclocking capabilities.

So if i use an 8350 in this comparison the we can take another $150-$200 AUD away as well leaving me $350-$400 for Custom water cooling and leaving the 4770k on a stock cooler.
Edited by Sgt Bilko - 3/9/14 at 7:08am
 
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Ryzen 5 1600 MSI X370 Xpower Gaming Titanium  RX580 Red Devil 16GB Corsair Vengeance LED 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 960 Evo OCZ Trion 150 Fractal Design Kelvin S36 Win 10 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Nixeus NX-VUE24A Thermaltake Poseidon Z RGB Thermaltake Toughpower Grand RGB 750w Thermaltake View 31 RGB 
Mouse
Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8370 Asus Crosshair V Formula-Z R9 290x 16GB G.Skill TridentX 2400Mhz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 Evo 250GB Samsung External Blu-Ray Burner Fractal Design Kelvin S36 Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Whatever Logitech G19 Silverstone ST1200w CM Storm Trooper 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G502 Star Citizen Drake Goliath Logitech X530 5.1 Logitech G930 7.1 Wireless Headset 
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