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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 36  

post #351 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

A bad oc would certainly do it , but that's not what causes it in my case.
I notice the difference when all are stock using the same ram modules in comparing platforms ( 4 different mobo's 3 different intel chips an 2600k ,3770k I7's and a 2500k).

Honestly, it would have to be placebo in that case. Windows loves Intel and most programs favor Intel due to current programming trends among other variable. There is no reason for a stock 760k to "feel" faster than a stock i7 or i5.

The benchmarks would have you believe it, but they don't reflect normal usage very well by their very nature. That's what puzzled me most about it and kept me from considering it to be valid for some time. Then I took a look at the differences that a benchmark has compared to daily use. The more I thought about it, the more I have come to realize unless you do pretty much what the benchmark is set up to demonstrate, and do it exclusively for a great majority of the time you are at your rig, there is little correlation between those scores and daily use.
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post #352 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

The "all games run just fine on any CPU" isn't a real argument. Yes the games do run but for the best experience overall in all kinds of titles you're going to want a new-ish intel CPU.

If you're sure that you only play BF4 and crysis 3 (and similar) then sure, save the $50 and get an FX. Other than that, the better experience is with the consistently well performing choice.

We could all shout that our platform "feels" the best until we're red in the face but it wouldn't benefit anyone actually looking to buy a system because no proof would be offered, no objective information or testing.
Cars are a completely different market and frankly I have no idea why you would choose to compare AMD to porsche or Apple.

You do realize that saying X is better than Y because the benchmarks say so, is NO LESS an opinion than saying X is better than Y because is just feels that way, right?

The problem with all this "Benchmark" toting fanaticism is that it is all too superficial. Saying i5 is 20% faster than FX is just as subjective as saying that FX "feels" 20% faster than i5, because the numbers sometimes just dont scale that way in the real world.

Assuming the 20% figure is accurate and may sound like a lot (and im sure you were being generous), that doesn't mean that it directly translates into a 20% better end-user experience.

Why else would users of both platforms proclaim to have equally pleasing, and often indistinguishable experiences? Your "cold hard facts and simple math" say all the contrary, yet almost no one here agrees, myself included!

Now why do you think I would say that I simply cannot tell a diff between my 4.6 Ghz 4770k and my 4.8 Ghz 8320? Because I have a vested interest in AMD? I dont. Because I hate intel? I dont, and you wont see me in the intel forums bashing them.

Seat of the pants value.... Its real, and its present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post


Just proves my point. CPU-Z and superpi 1M scores. Neither of those put much stress on the board.

Now try cinebench or wprime 1024m at 1.8v+ and 7GHz+
Again, you can't generalize all FXs and say that they're all as capable as yours. Many of them have horrendous leakage and the heat output goes completely crazy after 4.6ghz or so. Some don't, but many do.

Im assuming you realized you were mistaken, hence the ninja-edit there, so I wont bother posting LN2 runs on the UD3. Like I said before, your whole "higher cost due to beefy motherboard requirements" argument is just plain wrong. Can we agree that the "$150+ Mobo Requirement" statement needs to be retired? But you are right that we cannot expect all FX chips to clock that high without temps being a problem, but I think that we can agree that the $20 cooler I mentioned earlier is almost guaranteed for 4.5Ghz on the octo-cores.
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post #353 of 1593
Within the last year or so I upgraded my aging Phenom II 940 AM2 setup to my current 8350 rig and what a huge jump it was. I have recently been tossing around the idea at making the jump to Intel not due to better performance, but the lack of AMD producing a next Gen. CPU to replace Vishera kinda leaves us not much of an upgrade path with AMD. Unless the APU really kicks into high gear to stay in step with Intel's overall performance we (AMD fans) will be left out in the cold so to say.

The thing I'm not happy about is the lack of high end motherboards for AMD processors. I have been looking at Intel motherboards for the past few weeks and see a lot more choices in the mid-high end range that we don't have with AMD based boards. It could be due to the number of socket changes Intel spits out compared to AMD that tops out with the Asus Crosshair V Formula.

I sure hope AMD drops a Steamroller CPU for us, but not seeing anything coming soon.


PS: Great thread so far...
Edited by By-Tor - 3/9/14 at 1:31pm
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post #354 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

You do realize that saying X is better than Y because the benchmarks say so, is NO LESS an opinion than saying X is better than Y because is just feels that way, right?

Seat of the pants value.... Its real, and its present.

Every i5 / i7 buyer gets a flying pink hippo for free with their purchase. It flies out to do my groceries every Wednesday.

It's real and it's present while I type this post.
Quote:
Im assuming you realized you were mistaken, hence the ninja-edit there, so I wont bother posting LN2 runs on the UD3. Like I said before, your whole "higher cost due to beefy motherboard requirements" argument is just plain wrong. Can we agree that the "$150+ Mobo Requirement" statement needs to be retired? But you are right that we cannot expect all FX chips to clock that high without temps being a problem, but I think that we can agree that the $20 cooler I mentioned earlier is almost guaranteed for 4.5Ghz on the octo-cores.

We were talking about power delivery. As I'm sure you're well aware because OCing potential and being able to handle high overclocks was the subject at hand. No-load situations aren't part of the discussion when talking about power delivery. This much should be obvious though it clearly isn't so I'll elaborate:

It doesn't take any special hardware to insulate a board and cool it down to -180C -ish.

It does take special hardware to then actually use (run a stressful program) a CPU at those voltages and frequencies.

Your argument is the same as me saying that "since my Titan can be validated by CPU-Z at 1500MHz without mosfet heatsinks it's perfectly fine for benching like that". But we all know that what would really happen at that point is an RMA ticket to Asus.

Same deal with the board you're talking about.

tl;dr validation/superpi with LN2 requires less from a mobo than full on stress testing with air cooling. This means that using validations/1M runs as arguments for a board's power deliver under LN2 means absolutely nothing.

Ask anyone who actually uses DICE/LN2/Phase, they'll tell you the same thing.
 
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post #355 of 1593
With so many claimning the fx systems feel snappier inside windows. I wish I had done more side by side comparisons while I had desktops fom both camps.

It seems possible even though unlikely. Maybe windows is able utilize more of that overkill of cache amd uses on the fx line.
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post #356 of 1593
This thread made me wonder what's the price of the 9000 series processors these days. It seems that over here they are now priced within the realm of reason. 278 for the 9590 (20 euros cheaper than a 4770k albeit without a cooler) and a mere 207 for the 9370 (again fanless-a 4670k costs the same). I'd say the little one makes sense since from what I've seen you get a guaranteed 5Ghz overclock provided you have adequate cooling and a solid mobo (both of which are requirements for a good o/c on haswell as well,at least from what I've gathered).
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post #357 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

This thread made me wonder what's the price of the 9000 series processors these days. It seems that over here they are now priced within the realm of reason. 278 for the 9590 (20 euros cheaper than a 4770k albeit without a cooler) and a mere 207 for the 9370 (again fanless-a 4670k costs the same). I'd say the little one makes sense since from what I've seen you get a guaranteed 5Ghz overclock provided you have adequate cooling and a solid mobo (both of which are requirements for a good o/c on haswell as well,at least from what I've gathered).

Haswell doesn't need a good mobo for high OCs. This is because the VRM of the board doesn't actually have to drop the voltage all the way from 12V to ~1.3V. Only the drop from 12V to ~2V+ (OC'd) is handled by the board. The rest is done by the FIVR. This basically means that everything in the vrm is under less stress and heat output will be drastically lower.

Due to that even low end boards are just fine and you don't even need to use the heatsinks the boards come with, they work just fine without them.

As for the cooler, haswell doesn't need a cooler that can dissipate a lot of watts. It needs a cooler that can transfer the heat efficiently from a small area. Granted that usually can be achieved with higher end coolers. However the reason people buy them for haswell isn't the same as with FX/SB-E/etc.
 
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post #358 of 1593
I still think a decent overclocking z87 board is going to be $120. M5a99x on amazon are $135. So the mobos have gotten close in price. And the low end intel boards are not as good as that m5a99x they do not support sli.

The coolers required for medium overclock can the same as well. Excluding those 9 series things.

Its just a med overclock on the intels tend to be a bit stronger.

I think cost difference is close enough to be negligible on a budget of atleast $850.
Edited by Wirerat - 3/9/14 at 2:23pm
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post #359 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Haswell doesn't need a good mobo for high OCs. This is because the VRM of the board doesn't actually have to drop the voltage all the way from 12V to ~1.3V. Only the drop from 12V to ~2V+ (OC'd) is handled by the board. The rest is done by the FIVR. This basically means that everything in the vrm is under less stress and heat output will be drastically lower.

Due to that even low end boards are just fine and you don't even need to use the heatsinks the boards come with, they work just fine without them.

As for the cooler, haswell doesn't need a cooler that can dissipate a lot of watts. It needs a cooler that can transfer the heat efficiently from a small area. Granted that usually can be achieved with higher end coolers. However the reason people buy them for haswell isn't the same as with FX/SB-E/etc.

Would you attempt max o/c on a 90 euro 1150 board though?
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post #360 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Would you attempt max o/c on a 90 euro 1150 board though?

With something like a PRO3 or a G41? Sure why not. You'll hit voltage and temp walls way before the mobo becomes an issue.

The boards might have a bit more ripple than higher quality boards but not enough to make a real difference for air / AIO cooled systems.
 
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