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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 42  

post #411 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane569 View Post

The Question/issue here is, Is AMD a viable option for mid/high end CPUs.
A better question is, where is the line drawn on CPU ratings. What makes it high end or mid range or Enthusiast.
That is the real issue. Too many dynamics to make a clear definition.

Gaming:

say for extreme: 144FPS high/ultra settings and Some level of AA inversely proportional to resolution of course

High end: 120FPS high/ultra settings and Some level of AA inversely proportional to resolution of course but a notch below extreme

Mid end: 60FPS High/ultra settings and Some level of AA inversely proportional to resolution of course but a notch below high

Low end: 30 FPS Medium/high settings and low AA and resolution 1080p or below

But then you can argue for 60FPS 4K with low AA and reach that with the Mid end easy. Not the least of which most of it depends on the GPU more than the CPU.

So maybe we are talking multi-GPU setups but it still doesn't get easier to quantify.

Truth be told, most current CPUs can hit the High end with 780,780Ti,Titan,290 and 290X. Therefore the argument for gaming relies heavily on the GPU side.

For most other uses say video Rendering it gets a little sketchy with price but obviously in most situations Intel is the better choice till price becomes the deal breaker. But then again like most it will come down to does the difference in time really matter against the cost.
post #412 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

Benchmarks are a great starting point for data but they are not the end. The only true benchmark is actually usage.

The issue is benchmarks are not meant to represent real world experience.

The best benchmarks, for purposes of comparing different systems, try to emulate actual usage as closely as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

The benchmarks would have you believe it, but they don't reflect normal usage very well by their very nature.

You are using the wrong benchmarks.

[
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

The purest overclocking measurement

Believe it or not, most people overclock for improvements to real world performance, not for max frequency records.

I've overclocked every system I've owned since at least 1995...have never attempted a world record, and have never submitted anything to HWBot or the like.


These scenarios are far different from some of the subjective feelings presented in this thread, where parts that are literally slower in every measurable facet of performance are claimed as feeling smoother.

Yup I'm an old time overclocker too, jumpers etc and the only way I could see the change in clockspeed was in bios.
I think it's best when comparing anything to use data that would effect the broadest group of people, and the equipment being operated in a way that reflects the majority of how they are being used.
You seem to agree with that because you rightly suggested using Newegg pricing rather than microcenter's.
A very small percentage of people actually overclock , so stock speeds will be vastly more relevant.
I have shown plenty of benchmarking scores where the stock AMD outpaced the stock Intel. I didn't do this because I believe those scores are then end all measurement of daily performance, my belief is directly opposite of that. I did this to show that it is quite possible that the AMD's will perform better in daily usage. But if you believe that benchmarks are the end all measurement, there you go, the 9370 is faster in Cinebench at stock than the 3770K and it's about $100 cheaper to boot. Really can't deny those facts and you can't have it both ways, either benchmark scores are relevant or they aren't , the equipment is being asked to do the same thing.
The amount of cpu use time that is dedicated to benchmarking by the average user is so small an ant would need corrective lenses to see it.
I really don't need to overclock at all for real world tasks , plenty of performance at stock.
I do like to tinker though and its something I do for fun the extra performance is just a bit of a bonus.

I really don't see how it's possible that I am using the wrong benchmarks, I've ran pretty much every benchmark on HWBOT and most games that offer a benchmarking utility as well. ( Finally making some contributions to the OCN Hwbot team - I'm ranked 14th on the team wheee.gif out of 1509) Join the team man, have some fun and score some points for good old OCN!

It's true the $300 + Intel chips outpace the offerings from AMD in most benchmarks, but that is so far removed from what daily usage is that they are almost irrelevant. Even if you find one that closes resembles what you spend your time doing, the point of benchmarking is tweaking the rig ( or the benching program settings etc.) to achieve the best score, while doing as little as possible other than maybe monitoring heat and voltages.

The reality is that there are a huge number of other tasks running during daily usage.
It's here where I think it's possible that AMD's 8 core machines have an advantage VS 4 core 8 thread rigs when asked to operate in that environment. Hwbot prime certainly recognizes cores vs threads as a performance benefit, is it so improbably that daily usage would too?

As for the frequency records. I did this mainly to show that benchmarks can be completely useless in measuring anything in the "real" world and to demonstrate the ability of the AMD hardware to run faster than anything Intel has to offer . Clockspeed, no more black and white measurement than that ( and possibly very little as inconsequential as well ).

As I have said many times, about the only value I see most benchmarking programs having is for tweaking an individual system.
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post #413 of 1593
Quote:
Truth be told, most current CPUs can hit the High end with 780,780Ti,Titan,290 and 290X. Therefore the argument for gaming relies heavily on the GPU side.

For most games that are not really CPU heavy, yea
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post #414 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

For most games that are not really CPU heavy, yea

This changes the whole "viable for mid/high end" argument. If the CPU can push enough information to the GPU to max it out, then there's a lot of CPUs that can be viable. It comes down to price and power after that. If AMD can keep making CPUs that don't bottleneck GPUs, then they are still viable in this section of the market.

I don't know about other people on here, but I OCed my CPU to lessen bottleneck on my GPU. (GTX 760 and Athlon 750k)
In this section of CPU viability arguments, I get the job done. But if I switch over to rendering, then I fail. But I only fail by a few seconds and numbers. In reality, I get the job done just fine.
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post #415 of 1593
Quote:
If AMD can keep making CPUs that don't bottleneck GPUs, then they are still viable in this section of the market.

If you're GPU bound or raising settings/resolution/aa until you are GPU binding yourself favoring those over FPS (or the game simply maintains your fps target np on your CPU, or a weaker one) then it doesn't really matter so much, you don't need an i5 or an fx

If you're CPU bound and one gives 70fps absolute max no matter how many 780ti's/290x's while the other gives 100, it's kinda heartbreaking for someone who built a "high end" system
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post #416 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Quote:
If AMD can keep making CPUs that don't bottleneck GPUs, then they are still viable in this section of the market.

If you're GPU bound or raising settings/resolution/aa until you are GPU binding yourself favoring those over FPS (or the game simply maintains your fps target np on your CPU, or a weaker one) then it doesn't really matter so much, you don't need an i5 or an fx

If you're CPU bound and one gives 70fps absolute max no matter how many 780ti's/290x's while the other gives 100, it's kinda heartbreaking for someone who built a "high end" system

Hey if it's not too much trouble, could you please run cinebench multi core benches at stock with that 4770K please and post the results here?
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post #417 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

If you're actually telling your customers that the FX is the better choice then I feel bad for the customers.
The FX can certainly be a better choice for specific tasks than an i5, for some things, but yeah generally people who advise an FX over an Intel for Gaming or "in general" are spreading horrible advice.

I would be interested in an FX for a spare PC to do Rendering, but that's about it at the moment. I've got an i7 rig already to game on so that's why an FX is attractive for a second build. Can do MT stuff on it, and ST/General on the main PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

If your customers buy their PCs for hwbot prime only then disregard the statement above.
I believe some people actually do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I honestly do not understand the mentality and rationale behind buying an FX for gaming.

Me either, unless of course it is a gaming build designed with the intent to multi-box or run lots of games simultaneously.
Unfortunately, running multiple games at once isn't that simple most of the time with some games coded to just eat up as much resources as possible, but if you go in and set things up, you can make them all run nice side-by-side with some tweaking.

Running 8 instances of WoW for multi-boxing would probably perform a bit better on the FX than an i5, so if that's your idea of gaming, then that right there is your decent reason to go with the FX for gaming. Unfortunately it just so happens that most people run one instance of a game, so this is quite rare to see.
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post #418 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

If you're actually telling your customers that the FX is the better choice then I feel bad for the customers.
The FX can certainly be a better choice for specific tasks than an i5, for some things, but yeah generally people who advise an FX over an Intel for Gaming or "in general" are spreading horrible advice.

I would be interested in an FX for a spare PC to do Rendering, but that's about it at the moment. I've got an i7 rig already to game on so that's why an FX is attractive for a second build. Can do MT stuff on it, and ST/General on the main PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

If your customers buy their PCs for hwbot prime only then disregard the statement above.
I believe some people actually do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I honestly do not understand the mentality and rationale behind buying an FX for gaming.

Me either, unless of course it is a gaming build designed with the intent to multi-box or run lots of games simultaneously.
Unfortunately, running multiple games at once isn't that simple most of the time with some games coded to just eat up as much resources as possible, but if you go in and set things up, you can make them all run nice side-by-side with some tweaking.

Running 8 instances of WoW for multi-boxing would probably perform a bit better on the FX than an i5, so if that's your idea of gaming, then that right there is your decent reason to go with the FX for gaming. Unfortunately it just so happens that most people run one instance of a game, so this is quite rare to see.

If you snag a Vishera, let us know how you get along smile.gif
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post #419 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Hey if it's not too much trouble, could you please run cinebench multi core benches at stock with that 4770K please and post the results here?
I'm sure you can find that @google, i can do 1k points but ~952 at 4.6 (about 100-200mhz below 24/7 volt max)
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post #420 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Hey if it's not too much trouble, could you please run cinebench multi core benches at stock with that 4770K please and post the results here?
I'm sure you can find that @google, i can do 1k points but ~952 at 4.6 (about 100-200mhz below 24/7 volt max)

Ok thank you, I'd prefer yours but I understand.


Those are very nice, you should post a SS of those scores.

Messy video, meant to show people it's possible to have a 5 ghz OC and still have CNQ enabled, but it gives an idea of how snappy my 8350 rig is smile.gif
http://youtu.be/-pi2_eDey20
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