Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD CPUs › AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 48  

post #471 of 1593
Thread Starter 
An 8320 is a little over 2x as fast as an old Phenom ii X3. Now keep in mind that's 3 cores @ 2.8ghz .vs. 8 cores @ 3.5ghz. (obviously, this means that Phenom II cores are faster, even at lower clocks)

To me, 2x the performance is not a worthy upgrade in the slightest. And that's kinda the problem with AMD's last FX lineup....they give very little incentive for the cost and performance, to upgrade from even 5 year old AMD processors (The x3 and x4 was released in 2009).

Then if you consider a person may have already had an X4 or X6 Phenom II, the upgrade incentives are even less as the performance increases are marginal for all the extra cost.

You could take that $159 for the 8320 and put it in some massive liquid cooling, and probably extremely overclock older Phenom II's to a respectable performance level, and have it for future processors as well.



The AM3+ socket is officially dead....there will be no further releases for AM3+ sockets, nor anything else but mobile and APU sockets/cpu's.

That's another issue with the 4770 comparisons and such.....we're comparing intel APU's. against AMD non APU's, and obviously that's going to affect the price. That's like comparing a non graphics Intel to an AMD APU.


So here's a big question to think about....What are you people in favor of AMD going to do once FX leaves the market? You probably won't see an AMD APU that could compete with the 8x/9x for another 5 years.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/11/14 at 11:16am
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
post #472 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

An 8320 is a little over 2x as fast as an old Phenom ii X3. Now keep in mind that's 3 cores @ 2.8ghz .vs. 8 cores @ 3.5ghz. (obviously, this means that Phenom II cores are faster, even at lower clocks)

To me, 2x the performance is not a worthy upgrade in the slightest. And that's kinda the problem with AMD's last FX lineup....they give very little incentive for the cost and performance, to upgrade from even 5 year old AMD processors (The x3 and x4 was released in 2009).

Then if you consider a person may have already had an X4 or X6 Phenom II, the upgrade incentives are even less as the performance increases are marginal for all the extra cost.

You could take that $159 for the 8320 and put it in some massive liquid cooling, and probably extremely overclock older Phenom II's to a respectable performance level, and have it for future processors as well.



The AM3+ socket is officially dead....there will be no further releases for AM3+ sockets, nor anything else but mobile and APU sockets/cpu's.

That's another issue with the 4770 comparisons and such.....we're comparing intel APU's. against AMD non APU's, and obviously that's going to affect the price. That's like comparing a non graphics Intel to an AMD APU.


So here's a big question to think about....What are you people in favor of AMD going to do once FX leaves the market? You probably won't see an AMD APU that could compete with the 8x/9x for another 5 years.

I've already jumped on the APU boat because that's the future. iGPUs and the promise of HSA, that's the risk we take. Similar to risks you take with Intel.

Also problem with Phenoms is they do not support newer instructions (don't ask me what ones I am not knowledgeable there tongue.gif) so there's many instances where FX beat Phenoms by a large margin.

Needless to say Phenoms are built on 45nm process, larger, hotter and less energy efficient than FX. Phenoms have true cores that's why they excel, isn't it like FPU per core? So every core can be fully utilise.

Plus, fair play to AMD, they went out of their comfort zone to completely redesign a chip, not just correcting every previous generation as they've done.


A stock 8350 is faster than 90% of all Phenoms, it's when you get into 1090T and 1100T. All other Phenoms are lower clocked, but when clocked they excel, that's at a price.


Besides I am buying into the HSA hype because it's a gamble which if succeeds will change how things currently work. It'll benefit everyone smile.gif integrating the GPU and CPU is great team work and if developers get behind it efficiency will shoot through the roof, which is definitely a bad point about AMD at the moment.


It's not just about head to head with Intel now, it's about trying to find efficient solutions rather than trying to max out raw performance. Which is a good thing.


We all want the day to come when GPUs are powerful enough onboard, or powerful enough to provide decent crossfire performance with a very efficient lower end GPU. No one wants a big 200W GPU in their system, we'd probably all rather onboard if it were powerful enough.


And also AMD aren't getting rid of the "big bad cores", in that server chips will still exist, Opterons.

If you need cores you go Opterons. If you don't they have another market for that and they feel their quad cores with strong iGPU performance is a great solution in the market. Which I agree with. Quads are the sweet spot for consumers.
Edited by mikeo01 - 3/11/14 at 11:44am
post #473 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Also problem with Phenoms is they do not support newer instructions (don't ask me what ones I am not knowledgeable there tongue.gif) so there's many instances where FX beat Phenoms by a large margin.

sounds kind of silly to say "But it has some new instructions I have no clue about that I don't even know if it makes a difference"

Phenom II only applies in this discussion in the sense that it shows AMD really did drop the ball when it comes to how they could have done things after Phenom II.

Quote:
Plus, fair play to AMD, they went out of their comfort zone to completely redesign a chip, not just correcting every previous generation as they've done.

I'm not going to praise a company for doing what they're supposed to be doing. That's like saying I should praise the water company for bringing me clean water, even though I pay for it.
Quote:
Phenoms have true cores that's why they excel, isn't it like FPU per core? So every core can be fully utilise.

I've said this before, it was the main issue in my opening post. I'm not seeing how this is a plus for AMD. It's again, a bit silly to say "go easy on AMD, it only has one FPU per 2 cores". AMD is not some child on a playground that can't help the way they were born.
Quote:
And also AMD aren't getting rid of the "big bad cores", in that server chips will still exist, Opterons.

Except....in the case of 12 and 16 core or more opterons, all those cores aren't going to matter if your programs can't utilize all of them. You'll also need something like a G34 socket motherboard....which is around $200-$500+ for the motherboards alone.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/11/14 at 1:04pm
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
post #474 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

sounds kind of silly to say "But it has some new instructions I have no clue about that I don't even know if it makes a difference"
I'm not going to praise a company for doing what they're supposed to be doing. That's like saying I should praise the water company for bringing me clean water, even though I pay for it.
I've said this before, it was the main issue in my opening post. I'm not seeing how this is a plus for AMD. It's again, a bit silly to say "go easy on AMD, it only has one FPU per 2 cores". AMD is not some child on a playground that can't help the way they were born.

Well no I know what instruction sets are, it's basically telling the processor how to handle things. So it's a programming language. I.E. if a Phenom doesn't support an instruction set it's not exactly going to handle it the most efficient way possible as it doesn't have the necessary language and commands to. That's what I get, but I don't know them in depth. I understand programming side of that.

But no the point is AMD took a gamble, it's you as the customer to decide whether you'd want to purchase it. AMD could of well continued down their Phenom path and have very good performance but I don't think the power consumption would be within limits. That's why AMD had to change their design, a long with the manufacturing process. It wouldn't of helped them one bit. So a redesign was necessary.

Yes because the design looked good on paper, but the implementation wasn't up to scratch. You've got to remember the differences in companies, AMD is small compared to Intel so it's a lot easier for Intel to succeed in tasks than AMD.



The bottom line is AMD is developing new ideas, or putting ideas into implementation which is a good thing. E.g. HSA, they're going about it. Any advance in technology is great and AMD has always been one to develop and try out new ideas.

We can't be stuck with just CPU power forever, the transition to GPU cores will happen because it's a lot more efficient. AMD are simply going down that route and placing their bets in it.

Basically they are doing very well for such a small company and they do deliver to enthusiasts. Of course they may not be looked at much in the high end business where performance and efficiency is essential but that's only one side of the story. They are now bringing powerful iGPU solutions to mobile for example, they drive the PS4 and Xbox One which is another massive step for AMD.


They know their performance may never be on Intel's level but then again they are trying to get developers on their side to optimise for their new architectures. Isn't most software optimised for Intel? Yes it is. It's about how you use the hardware not just the hardware itself (of course it has a part but you need to suck out as much performance as that architecture can give).

Example, OpenCL, AMD's best case scenario. It's something that favours one over the other, software implementation basically.
post #475 of 1593
Just cant counter a point without being dramatic can you? @AMDATI
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 2670 @ 2.8Ghz m4600 m5100 @ 1100c/1500m 16GB DDR3 1333Mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
c300 128GB SSD 2TB FireCuda 7mm 2TB Firecuda 7mm 1TB 5400rpm 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
750GB 5400rpm Windows 10 x64  1920x1080 @90hz 150w 
Mouse
Corsair M40 
  hide details  
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 2670 @ 2.8Ghz m4600 m5100 @ 1100c/1500m 16GB DDR3 1333Mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
c300 128GB SSD 2TB FireCuda 7mm 2TB Firecuda 7mm 1TB 5400rpm 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
750GB 5400rpm Windows 10 x64  1920x1080 @90hz 150w 
Mouse
Corsair M40 
  hide details  
post #476 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

sounds kind of silly to say "But it has some new instructions I have no clue about that I don't even know if it makes a difference"

Phenom II only applies in this discussion in the sense that it shows AMD really did drop the ball when it comes to how they could have done things after Phenom II.
Lol, do you know anything at all when it comes to the facts or you just make it up? The architecture was EOL and no amount of anything was gonna change that and by some miraculous means make it competitive to Intel in the Future. The Phenoms max clocks were roughly on avg 4.0-4.4Ghz and the FX 8350s in the range of 4.6-5.0Ghz which makes up for the IPC. And having newer Instructions sets is a decided advantage say for future proofing. Don't get me wrong, the Phenoms are awesome, I still have my 965BE. But if you are fool enough to believe that a phenom is gonna carry you further than another 2 years in Mid-High end (that is the original discussion point right) you my friend are completely deluded.
Quote:
I'm not going to praise a company for doing what they're supposed to be doing. That's like saying I should praise the water company for bringing me clean water, even though I pay for it.
Again you are not looking far enough or open minded enough for this one. AMD purchased ATI years ago in preparation for their new APUs. Then they designed a new architecture that now we see one reason for the reduced FPU = HSA and iGPU. The second reason is FPU is not a greatly used resource and some have mentioned they thought AVX was gonna take off more. At any rate when a APU with HSA can topple a X Intel processor then you know they are onto something.

It is funny most gripe that Intels %5 inc with each new release is paultry and they demand better. Then AMD comes out with HSA and give nearly 200-300% and those same people act like that is a problem.
Quote:
I've said this before, it was the main issue in my opening post. I'm not seeing how this is a plus for AMD. It's again, a bit silly to say "go easy on AMD, it only has one FPU per 2 cores". AMD is not some child on a playground that can't help the way they were born.
This part was covered above, hopefully you can see your error.
Quote:
Except....in the case of 12 and 16 core or more opterons, all those cores aren't going to matter if your programs can't utilize all of them. You'll also need something like a G34 socket motherboard....which is around $200-$500+ for the motherboards alone.
[/QUOTE]
Ok so you acknowledge that Opterons still exist, yet you think for a second that no CPU/FX could be released. Granted it LOOKs like AM3+ could be EOL, but no where that I am aware is it stated by AMD that it is. There are numerous emails in the Steamroller threads where they were told it was EOL yet. That doesn't guarantee a new chip release and it could be the 9370/9590 were the topics of the non-EOL.

So before you go too far make sure you understand more than what you read in a thread. Posts made without the real facts help no one.
post #477 of 1593
Thread Starter 
You've literally completely distorted everything I've said, to the point where I'm only replying to make sure they're recognized......looking at what I said, and you said in response, clearly shows this.

Quote:
" But if you are fool enough to believe that a phenom is gonna carry you further than another 2 years in Mid-High end (that is the original discussion point right) you my friend are completely deluded. "

That doesn't even have a bearing on anything I've said.
Quote:
"It is funny most gripe that Intels %5 inc with each new release is paultry and they demand better."

Perhaps, but we're talking AMD vs Intel......not Intel vs Intel.
Quote:
"Ok so you acknowledge that Opterons still exist, yet you think for a second that no CPU/FX could be released. Granted it LOOKs like AM3+ could be EOL, but no where that I am aware is it stated by AMD that it is."

Yes, AM3+ is EOL, since they're not releasing any faster processors for it, or any at all for that matter. As soon as the supplies of FX cpu's disappear, so will AM3+. From there you'll only have APU's and Opterons.

Quote:
Posts made without the real facts help no one

I've laid out quite a few facts over the course of this thread, all 100% accurate. Just remember, saying something you want to be true doesn't mean it is true.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/11/14 at 3:15pm
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
Not Yours
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC MSI GTX 1080Ti G.SKILL DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
SAMSUNG 830 OCZ Deneva 2R WD Scorpio Noctua U14S 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Acer XB270HU IPS CM Quickfire Rapid Fractal Design 650w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Node 304 SteelSeries Rival 700 SteelSeries Qck Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
post #478 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

-snip-
EDIT: since this is going onto the laptop discussion. I picked up a Thinkpad X140e for $530 and threw Gentoo on it. I have a complete 15w system and the whole OS is using AVX/SSE4.2/etc. I don't know why you'd need anything else if you have a good desktop.

The thrust of what you're saying barring the overclock stuff is AMD can compete for most users in that I agree where we disagree is comparing your Gentoo install to any sort of Windows install no matter how light. Your Gentoo and my Arch to a lesser extent will provide a better user experience on lower powered hardware because there is just less going on fewer daemons mes less processes and better battery life. I can get ~5 hours of actual usage out of my EDC with Windows that drops closer to 3 with a C2D and 9 cell battery. When you start to argue intangibles on a nerd forum particularly with the demographic that makes up this forum you automagically loose solely based on intangibles with that you now understand the Mac users dilemma particularly during the PowerPC era.

================

There are few things being discussed here, but first we need to agree on mid/high end based in Intel i.e. competition. Do we consider a 4770 high end or is that mid range? IMHO anything 1155 is mid-range, AMD has nothing to compete with 2011.

Does it matter to most that AMD cannot compete with 2011; No

Is AMD trying to compete with 2011; No

is AMD fine for gaming: yuppers

Is AMD fine for content creation; not so much

These things don't make AMD bad or slow it simply mean they don't throw the same bench numbers if that's important which it is to Alatar. Alatar IMHO is biased but we're all biased so that doesn't necessarily discount his opinion most of us can learn a bit from him. I think AMD is more innovative than Intel simply because they are looking to the future where Intel is just making a brawnier x86 core not to mention that Intel rivals Microsoft in shady business practices..

Way back in the day when you had to soldier to OC I choose Cyrix over Intel when using x86 because Intel was shady the same is true today. If you want to penis wag and have internet "creds" you're on a hex or DP/QP Intel then there are the rest of us.
Edited by GermanyChris - 3/12/14 at 6:16am
 
DD Portable
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 5675C Gigabyte GA-Z97X Gaming 5 XFX RX 480 GTR 32GB Corsair Vengeance 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Evo Western Digital Black RE4 2TB Western Digital Green 2TB bequiet! Silent Wings 2 140mm PWM 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
bequiet! Silent Wings 2 140mm PWM bequiet! Shadow Wings SW1 120mm PWM bequiet! Dark Rock Pro 3 Arch X64 / Gnome and OSX 10.11 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung 590D 4K KBC Poker II be quiet! Straight Power 10 400W bequiet! Silent Base 800 
MouseAudioAudio
Speedlink Omni VI  Sound Blaster Z  Bose Companion 2  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 3427U The Googs HD4000 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
32GB Flash / 128GB SanDisk Extreme SD card ChromeOS / Ubuntu 14.04 12" 2560x1700 bad 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
not much  Aluminium  Trackpad it makes noise I think  
  hide details  
 
DD Portable
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 5675C Gigabyte GA-Z97X Gaming 5 XFX RX 480 GTR 32GB Corsair Vengeance 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Evo Western Digital Black RE4 2TB Western Digital Green 2TB bequiet! Silent Wings 2 140mm PWM 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
bequiet! Silent Wings 2 140mm PWM bequiet! Shadow Wings SW1 120mm PWM bequiet! Dark Rock Pro 3 Arch X64 / Gnome and OSX 10.11 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung 590D 4K KBC Poker II be quiet! Straight Power 10 400W bequiet! Silent Base 800 
MouseAudioAudio
Speedlink Omni VI  Sound Blaster Z  Bose Companion 2  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 3427U The Googs HD4000 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
32GB Flash / 128GB SanDisk Extreme SD card ChromeOS / Ubuntu 14.04 12" 2560x1700 bad 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
not much  Aluminium  Trackpad it makes noise I think  
  hide details  
post #479 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

@AMDATI

How did you come to the conclusion the 4770K is 40% better in floating point? Here's a screenshot of my FX-9590 completely stock. Note it's faster than the 3770k and more than double the Phenom II X4 955. Which means this bad design is still outpacing a theoretical Phenom II X8.


what did I just read
post #480 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

You've literally completely distorted everything I've said, to the point where I'm only replying to make sure they're recognized......looking at what I said, and you said in response, clearly shows this.
That doesn't even have a bearing on anything I've said.
Yes, AM3+ is EOL, since they're not releasing any faster processors for it, or any at all for that matter. As soon as the supplies of FX cpu's disappear, so will AM3+. From there you'll only have APU's and Opterons.



I've laid out quite a few facts over the course of this thread, all 100% accurate. Just remember, saying something you want to be true doesn't mean it is true.
Ok first:
Quote:
An 8320 is a little over 2x as fast as an old Phenom ii X3. Now keep in mind that's 3 cores @ 2.8ghz .vs. 8 cores @ 3.5ghz. (obviously, this means that Phenom II cores are faster, even at lower clocks)

To me, 2x the performance is not a worthy upgrade in the slightest. And that's kinda the problem with AMD's last FX lineup....they give very little incentive for the cost and performance, to upgrade from even 5 year old AMD processors (The x3 and x4 was released in 2009).
Easy enough to see that can be extrapolated from your post above.

As far as the rest LOL my god this is sooooo funny.
Quote:
Perhaps, but we're talking AMD vs Intel......not Intel vs Intel.
Boy you really can't keep up. And I see you selectively cut out the topic in your repost of mine. See the reason one does that is because they can't argue the facts and know they have nothing. HSA is a huge potential and the fact you wish to not speak on it shows your ignorance and choice in being so. You wish to debate and argue then come and debate all the facts not just those that your limited knowledge and interest can bear.
Quote:
Yes, AM3+ is EOL, since they're not releasing any faster processors for it, or any at all for that matter. As soon as the supplies of FX cpu's disappear, so will AM3+. From there you'll only have APU's and Opterons.
How about you prove this. Can you? Let me guess you are basing this on the numerous OPINIONs of some writers.
Quote:
Ok so you acknowledge that Opterons still exist, yet you think for a second that no CPU/FX could be released. Granted it LOOKs like AM3+ could be EOL, but no where that I am aware is it stated by AMD that it is.
See what I stated? there is no verifiable information on this yet although it is highly likely the outcome but any intelligent person would not go so far as to say it is fact and certain at this juncture.
Quote:
I've laid out quite a few facts over the course of this thread, all 100% accurate. Just remember, saying something you want to be true doesn't mean it is true.
Based on the thread to this point I think your statement applies to you more than anyone else. You have given no facts or rather viable conclusions as most of your statements have been debunked with relative ease. And your statements of Phenom further substantiate this claim.

Oh and notice I didn't cut any part of your posts out, all in full. I don't need to hide behind ruse to make my points valid.
Edited by Durquavian - 3/11/14 at 5:51pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: AMD CPUs
This thread is locked  
Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD CPUs › AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end?