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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 55  

post #541 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

AVX2 is definitely doing something. Older builds of x264 would be further than one frame per second off of a 4.4GHz 3930k.


And other IPC upgrades. Sandy to Ivy wasn't really significant for most stuff, Ivy to Haswell was bigger, but both added together is enough to make a dent. Thanks for the added stat - that's a ~16.7% performance lead for the 3930k, corrected for clock about ~19.4%
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post #542 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Puft View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

really?? how many sockets have been out since the core i series? I wish more companies would "screw" me with a long term socket

Intel introduces new features with each socket progression. 990FX is pretty much a rebadged 790FX
No... Just no..
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post #543 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post

No... Just no..
Care to elaborate ?
    
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post #544 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post

That is the thing. AMD is not saying "screw you". They are saying "it is time to move on." AM3 is an aged platform meant for the Phenoms. And continuing to support AM3 is contradictory to their long term goals. I am no expert, but this is just what I am picking up in the industry. AMD is innovating and so a new socket and platform is par for the course. If FX and APU's all end up on the same socket cool thumb.gif If FX moves to AM4 or what ever than that is cool too thumb.gif. I didn't hear people saying that Intel said "Screw you 775 users its time for 1366" when they dropped 775. Intel innovated their line up and said its time to move on. If you and other people can't handle the fact that innovation and change is par for the course and part of the industry, then you sir my friend have the WRONG hobby. Just saying how it is,.

EDIT: Dont know what happened there. Something broke my post! tongue.gif
EDIT 2: Also the comment you made is a testimant to how biased you are against AMD and you have proved it in other threads as well.

When Apple ditched serial ports and floppy drives people complained. Looking back it was time to cut the cord on those aging technologies.
post #545 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post

No... Just no..

Yeah.. It was
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post #546 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryDemon View Post

Of course most applications are going to be coded using Intel's compiler and libraries, the simple fact Intel sells far more CPU's than AMD. AMD is a minority and has to deal with the disadvantages that come with that.

The problem with ICC is that it intentionally harms performance on competing CPUs. Meaning that something compiled with ICC will actually run slower on an AMD or VIA because the compiler is generating code which will make the AMD or VIA CPU run far from optimal code.

http://www.ixbt.com/cpu/images/via-nano-cpuid-fake/pcmark-2005-atom-nano.jpg

Intel basically killed VIA completely with benchmark tricks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Quote:
Also, I just don't understand where Alatar's notion that "i5-4670k is comparable to multithreaded scenarios with a 8350" comes from. In true multithreaded scenarios an i5-4670k is one cut below and it shouldn't even be a matter of debate.

my 4770k with HT off is faster than my friends 8350 (my air vs his water) when he tested, which is the video encoder that basically everyone uses (packaged with handbrake etc)

As far as encoding goes, 8350 and 3770k were pretty much rivals. Haswell gained literally 15% IPC though for that encoder (thank avx2) and 4670k on air will clock at least as well as 3770k did. That puts 3770k/4670k/8350 quite close together with 4770k a bit of a leap ahead at added cost

It did pretty well in 2012 but it's not some clear step above any more.

I tout instructions a lot since I run Gentoo on my FX and can see some crazy improvements.

The thing is that the vast majority of enthusiasts are running Windows, which is designed to run on ancient hardware.

My attitude towards instructions is that it should be considered the absolutely performance of a chip when benchmarked, but it shouldn't be assumed to be real world scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Puft View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post

No... Just no..

Yeah.. It was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_chipsets

All you guys have to do is look it up on wikipedia.

Some of you are confusing north bridge and south bridge functions, but 990FX at the very least, according to wikipedia, added IOMMU, as well as HT 3.1.

However if you look at 770 chipset features, there is no way 990FX is 770. MAYBE the 970, but then again, 970 supports IOMMU and HT 3.1 while 770 doesn't.

AMD is betting the farm on HSA right now, and the only thing they have for HSA doesn't even beat Intel's high end traditional CPUs. AMD is going to have to release a higher end platform than FM2+ with Kaveri, or else there's no reason to go HSA when you can just spend more on a bigger Intel and not have to worry about HSA compatibility.
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post #547 of 1593
Quote:
I tout instructions a lot since I run Gentoo on my FX and can see some crazy improvements.

The thing is that the vast majority of enthusiasts are running Windows, which is designed to run on ancient hardware.

My attitude towards instructions is that it should be considered the absolutely performance of a chip when benchmarked, but it shouldn't be assumed to be real world scenarios.

Well, this is the encoder now, on windows, everybody that's encoding video with x264 or any program that contains it (Handbrake) is using an open source program that's had support for the instruction set for like a year now. That's about as real world as you can get, isn't it? This isn't some avx2/fma3 synthetic test, it's one of the best video encoders in the world.

Instruction sets improve performance, not every CPU has every instruction set. I disagree with implying that something like scoring twice as high on Linpack (>200gflops @4ghz) implies that CPU is twice as fast, that's just a niche synthetic load that hardly correlates to real world performance, but this is a real world, extremely popular open source video encoder taking a 5% speedup going from avx to avx2 (which excavator will bring?) so i think it's perfectly valid. We're mostly on the same page here, as far as i see
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/14/14 at 12:43am
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post #548 of 1593
Thread Starter 
APU's are in a bad position where they're not really enough for gaming, and too expensive for anything less than gaming, especially since even the cheapest motherboards include an onboard GPU that would do just fine in an HTPC on a budget, or even an ultra cheap discrete videocard would be more suitable and probably cost effective too. No one really needs that in-between performance. A quad core with an APU is just a joke.....in the sense that if an APU is enough video performance for someone, then a quad core anything is most likely too much processing power for their needs.

And while the CPU and GPU may share memory in HSA and reduce some overhead of copying back and forth, system memory still has a limited bandwidth divided between both.

No matter how powerful of a GPU you put in an APU, memory will always be the bottleneck. GPU's need 100-200GB/s for good performance, and no system memory is remotely that close.

I see people who buy 2000mhz+ RAM at a premium, just to squeeze more performance out of their APU's. Seems kind of silly to spend something like $150-180 on a quad core APU, then spend $40 or more extra for faster memory that still bottlenecks it greatly.


What seems to be the logical simpler step is not an all-on-die design, but rather a system on a chip design. You can't exactly plop RAM onto the die for a variety of reasons.

But this would remove the need for third party motherboards and RAM... that would be a difficult path with all the companies out there that make motherboards and RAM. Then you'd have the problem of features such as the typical slots you'd find on a motherboard. Variety of options would be out of the question, limited to about 3-5 system on a chip configurations.

Two people may want the same CPU but different GPU's or different amounts of RAM. Companies have enough trouble with sales as it is just by having different colors of products like tablets. With moherboards and RAM, there are tons of possible combinations that would be impractical to offer in a SoC.

APU's are a long way off from ever replacing GPU's even in the mid range segment. And I just don't see how they would get there until they consolidate high bandwidth memory onto the CPU, along with more powerful GPU's in general.
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post #549 of 1593
Quote:
A quad core with an APU is just a joke.....in the sense that if an APU is enough video performance for someone, then a quad core anything is most likely too much processing power for their needs.

At stock, 2 module 4 thread Kaveri competes with the Haswell i3. I don't think that's "too much processing power" for a gaming build at all - the igpu with a little *cough* performance tuning and a nice cheap high bandwidth RAM kit seems ok for lower settings especially if you sacrifice resolution, it's just not really to my tastes right now
Quote:
I see people who buy 2000mhz+ RAM at a premium, just to squeeze more performance out of their APU's. Seems kind of silly to spend something like $150-180 on a quad core APU, then spend $40 or more extra for faster memory that still bottlenecks it greatly.

Well, a good RAM kit isn't significantly more expensive than 1600c9. It's the top binned ones, that run aggressive speeds at a limited voltage (~1.65v) that cost a lot - think 2800c12/3000c12/3000c13 @1.65v hynix kits. A lot of RAM could do those speeds and timings, but required 1.7-1.8v - and they're pre-sorted and tested with XMP and a guarantee, so they were good for people with infinite money.

There was a kit on newegg for example, dual sided hynix MFR, IIRC (i'm not a RAM expert tongue.gif) that was stock ~2400mhz c11 1.65v that numerous people had success running at 2666c11 and 2800c12 on Haswell, especially with 1.7-1.75v - it was often $63, at times cheaper, cheaper than basically all of the 1600c9 kits at the time. There's a lot of deals like this out there, and when there's not, it was often worth spending 10-20 dollars/euros for some more kick in your build, even a bit more for some enthusiasts who said "right, i want this and i want to make the best of it"
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/14/14 at 1:26am
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post #550 of 1593
Quote:
APU's are in a bad position where they're not really enough for gaming, and too expensive for anything less than gaming, especially since even the cheapest motherboards include an onboard GPU that would do just fine in an HTPC on a budget, or even an ultra cheap discrete videocard would be more suitable and probably cost effective too. No one really needs that in-between performance. A quad core with an APU is just a joke.....in the sense that if an APU is enough video performance for someone, then a quad core anything is most likely too much processing power for their needs.

The performance of a Kaveri chip is still superb, there's only the Iris Pro from Intel which can beat it and that chip costs a whack. So for someone who needs a quiet space or something with decent onboard video without having to spend money on a video card (think power consumption) it's a very good choice. Even the 7850Ks seem to come close to their rated TDP and tend to use around 75W on average. Now that's pretty good considering what's on the die.

Also a quad core is a joke? Your Intel Core I5s and I7s are quad cores... It's only when you get onto the 2011 socket for instance their octa cores are available, and that price range is another step up completely so that doesn't make sense. Intel simply using hyperthreading to pretend there's more than 4 cores.
Quote:
And while the CPU and GPU may share memory in HSA and reduce some overhead of copying back and forth, system memory still has a limited bandwidth divided between both.
No matter how powerful of a GPU you put in an APU, memory will always be the bottleneck. GPU's need 100-200GB/s for good performance, and no system memory is remotely that close.
I see people who buy 2000mhz+ RAM at a premium, just to squeeze more performance out of their APU's. Seems kind of silly to spend something like $150-180 on a quad core APU, then spend $40 or more extra for faster memory that still bottlenecks it greatly.

Well no. Traditionally the way GPUs and CPUs communication is over the PCI-E bus meaning it has to copy everything over and back again. That's inefficient. By harnessing a common buffer (RAM) the CPU and GPU can access it simultaneously

System RAM is slower yes but the point is tasks can be split up serial and parallel accessing common cache which is far quicker than copying everything back and forth. Working on the same memory is beneficial. Yes there is a long way to come but the effects at the moment are nothing short of amazing. Yes there is latency but the process is a whole lot quicker and it's full potential hasn't been fully used yet, which is the exciting thing.

Another point is the potential of these chips. Take a look at this testing here http://benchmarkreviews.com/13238/amd-a10-7850k-performance-optimized-catalyst-14-2-driver/4/

You've got a chip rated at 95 TDP, quad core with 8 GPU cores driving some popular new titles. Mantle has improved performance, Catalyst updates to drive GCN. And the result is amazing. We've got a chip able to game some popular titles at 1080P sometimes above the minimum 30 fps.

That isn't bad, it just shows there is potential there. The thing flies along when paired with a discrete card such as the R7 250. For hard core gamers wanting absolute maximum quality will sniff at it, but the truth is it's a completely viable option for a lot of people out there wanting to game. Short on cash etc.

That's why there's been some people over here (including myself) jumping over, because it has potential. We've all seen the benchmarks where HSA is in place, and the result is an A10-7850K is much quicker than the I5, sometimes 3x as quick.

That's why AMD is going down the HSA route, it has potential.
Quote:
What seems to be the logical simpler step is not an all-on-die design, but rather a system on a chip design. You can't exactly plop RAM onto the die for a variety of reasons.

But this would remove the need for third party motherboards and RAM... that would be a difficult path with all the companies out there that make motherboards and RAM. Then you'd have the problem of features such as the typical slots you'd find on a motherboard. Variety of options would be out of the question, limited to about 3-5 system on a chip configurations.

Two people may want the same CPU but different GPU's or different amounts of RAM. Companies have enough trouble with sales as it is just by having different colors of products like tablets. With moherboards and RAM, there are tons of possible combinations that would be impractical to offer in a SoC.

AMD is coming out with a SoC, and that's AM1 with Kabini. Cheap alternative for budget systems and systems you can plop in your living room for everyday stuff. Also you can't fit everything on a single die, it's difficult to do and you are not going to get extreme performance for it. There's simply not enough room or room for high end performance. Besides that's not the point with system on a chip.
Quote:
APU's are a long way off from ever replacing GPU's even in the mid range segment. And I just don't see how they would get there until they consolidate high bandwidth memory onto the CPU, along with more powerful GPU's in general.

They are, but they will close the gap pretty soon I suspect. Budget builders may opt for a crossfire pair with the 7850K or even 7700K. I myself would love to remove my discrete card but it isn't going to happen yet, no.

But the point is we have seen it working in action and it'll improve over time (FM2+ for now).


AMD simply need the support, get driver support out and push ahead with it.
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