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post #551 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post


That's why AMD is going down the HSA route, it has potential.
AMD is coming out with a SoC, and that's AM1 with Kabini. Cheap alternative for budget systems and systems you can plop in your living room for everyday stuff. Also you can't fit everything on a single die, it's difficult to do and you are not going to get extreme performance for it. There's simply not enough room or room for high end performance. Besides that's not the point with system on a chip.
They are, but they will close the gap pretty soon I suspect. Budget builders may opt for a crossfire pair with the 7850K or even 7700K. I myself would love to remove my discrete card but it isn't going to happen yet, no.



I'm sorry if I come off like an AMD basher, I am not, however...........potential don't pay the bills.

I would guess most enthusiasts have an older system they can move to HTPC duty or would simply go used say a Q6600 or something. Most non-enthusiasts, most users, are simply going to buy a ready built system, ala i3.

My question to AMD is, since Intel already has graphics enabled on most of their consumer cpus and AMD doesn't offer anything more, and in some cases less, why would I buy AMD?
post #552 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagtek View Post

I'm sorry if I come off like an AMD basher, I am not, however...........potential don't pay the bills.

I would guess most enthusiasts have an older system they can move to HTPC duty or would simply go used say a Q6600 or something. Most non-enthusiasts, most users, are simply going to buy a ready built system, ala i3.

My question to AMD is, since Intel already has graphics enabled on most of their consumer cpus and AMD doesn't offer anything more, and in some cases less, why would I buy AMD?
Well, I have to agree with some points you are expressing. Having just experienced the second version Nexus 7 tablet, you cannot dismiss the benefits of alternate RISC designs. Fırst of all, fast and seamless experience for singular processing can easily be coupled with Qualcomm SoC's advantages, such as 1/3rd device weight and I have to point out, the new Nexus is the best portable device and the best monitor I have ever used by far.
Second, AMD's inherent advantage is not the fastest seamless experience as Intel reams the juice there, but when it comes to context switching and multiprocessing, I think AMD delivers a better flow albeit slower than Intel.
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post #553 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Even the 7850Ks...

7850K:

$184
Passmark: 5599

i3 4340:

$159
Passmark: 5133

i3 4330:

$139
Passmark: 5072

i3 4130
$125
Passmark: 4877

so the 4340 vs the 7850k......the 4340 is 8% slower, but 14% cheaper. the 4130 is 13% slower but 32% cheaper.


as I said before, APU's are too weak for gaming and too expensive for anything less than gaming. at that price, you'd be better off buying a $119, 6-core vishera and a cheap discrete GPU.


Quote:
Well no. Traditionally the way GPUs and CPUs communication is over the PCI-E bus meaning it has to copy everything over and back again. That's inefficient. By harnessing a common buffer (RAM) the CPU and GPU can access it simultaneously

That is exactly what I said.
Quote:
System RAM is slower yes but the point is tasks can be split up serial and parallel accessing common cache which is far quicker than copying everything back and forth.

Not true. I pointed this out. Even though sharing CPU/GPU memory space without the need to copy is more efficient than otherwise, it still doesn't make up for overall lack of bandwidth in system memory vs GDDR5.

Let's say you have a regular PC, non APU. Yes, you're suffering from having to copy data back and forth. Lets say your system RAM transfers at 10GB/s. That means you have a bandwidth of 10GB/s to copy data back and forth between CPU and GPU. But GPU's obviously need more than 10GB/s to produce higher frame rates. I guess the point is, the copying back and forth isn't as detrimental because videocards have high bandwidth memory on board. So on balance, it's not far more quicker like you claim, but actually slower over all.

Now as we know, higher RAM speeds really aren't going to give you extra performance with a videocard, so obviously all that copying back and forth isn't soo detrimental.

The only situation that it applies to as a benefit, is purely with APU's with HSA vs older APU's without HSA, since system memory is obviously an extreme bottleneck in both.

But as long as that memory bottleneck remains, they really can't make mid range or high end APU's. Imagine a GTX 780 with a 10GB/s memory bus....Things like anti aliasing also heavily rely on the memory bus speed. It's all about rapidly transferring data to be processed, and rapidly transferring already processed data. I/O....and well, the average system memory isn't going to be that much.

The existing problem with HSA is that even if both the GPU/CPU have access to the same memory space, they're also still reading from the same memory....that's the point after all, the be able to read and write from one memory source. But while you're not transferring data back and forth anymore, your CPU and GPU are still fighting over bandwidth from that one memory source.

This is exactly why I said the next step would have to be integrated memory, but as I delved into, that has its own challenges and problems and radical changes not just in design, but the PC component market itself. That kind of change isn't going to happen anytime soon. which means over at least the next 5 years, AMD pretty much won't be able to compete with mid-high end. I highly doubt they'll release an 8 core APU anytime soon for example because you'd need a strong enough GPU under the hood to justify that much processing power being paired with a GPU...otherwise if you didn't buy it for the GPU, then why even buy a chip with a GPU anyways?
Edited by AMDATI - 3/14/14 at 11:49pm
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post #554 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagtek View Post

My question to AMD is, since Intel already has graphics enabled on most of their consumer cpus and AMD doesn't offer anything more, and in some cases less, why would I buy AMD?

Outside of Iris Pro (which is way to expensive and hard to get), AMD still offers a far better balance of CPU and GPU performance. Kaveri's iGPU is about twice as fast as HD4600 which is what you get with an i3 and every other desktop processor. Although as of now the 7850K is pricier than just about every i3 so until AMD does something about that Kaveri isn't very attractive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Puft View Post

Where are all these excuses coming from? Its not intel's fault that amd has basically said "screw you" to its AM3+ users. Comparing an 8350 to a 4670K is perfectly acceptable

AM3+ needs to die. It is a horrible platform by today's standards.
post #555 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

7850K:

$184
Passmark: 5599

i3 4340:

$159
Passmark: 5133

i3 4330:

$139
Passmark: 5072

i3 4130
$125
Passmark: 4877

so the 4340 vs the 7850k......the 4340 is 8% slower, but 14% cheaper. the 4130 is 13% slower but 32% cheaper.


as I said before, APU's are too weak for gaming and too expensive for anything less than gaming. at that price, you'd be better off buying a $119, 6-core vishera and a cheap discrete GPU.
That is exactly what I said.
Not true. I pointed this out. Even though sharing CPU/GPU memory space without the need to copy is more efficient than otherwise, it still doesn't make up for overall lack of bandwidth in system memory vs GDDR5.

Let's say you have a regular PC, non APU. Yes, you're suffering from having to copy data back and forth. Lets say your system RAM transfers at 10GB/s. That means you have a bandwidth of 10GB/s to copy data back and forth between CPU and GPU. But GPU's obviously need more than 10GB/s to produce higher frame rates. I guess the point is, the copying back and forth isn't as detrimental because videocards have high bandwidth memory on board. So on balance, it's not far more quicker like you claim, but actually slower over all.

Now as we know, higher RAM speeds really aren't going to give you extra performance with a videocard, so obviously all that copying back and forth isn't soo detrimental.

The only situation that it applies to as a benefit, is purely with APU's with HSA vs older APU's without HSA, since system memory is obviously an extreme bottleneck in both.

But as long as that memory bottleneck remains, they really can't make mid range or high end APU's. Imagine a GTX 780 with a 10GB/s memory bus....Things like anti aliasing also heavily rely on the memory bus speed. It's all about rapidly transferring data to be processed, and rapidly transferring already processed data. I/O....and well, the average system memory isn't going to be that much.

The existing problem with HSA is that even if both the GPU/CPU have access to the same memory space, they're also still reading from the same memory....that's the point after all, the be able to read and write from one memory source. But while you're not transferring data back and forth anymore, your CPU and GPU are still fighting over bandwidth from that one memory source.

This is exactly why I said the next step would have to be integrated memory, but as I delved into, that has its own challenges and problems and radical changes not just in design, but the PC component market itself. That kind of change isn't going to happen anytime soon. which means over at least the next 5 years, AMD pretty much won't be able to compete with mid-high end. I highly doubt they'll release an 8 core APU anytime soon for example because you'd need a strong enough GPU under the hood to justify that much processing power being paired with a GPU...otherwise if you didn't buy it for the GPU, then why even buy a chip with a GPU anyways?

So it is getting better Passmark scores and has a crap ton better video performance? I would say AMD looks very good here in your comparisons. You are also making assumptions that the gaming performance is not "good enough"? According to who? You?
post #556 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjames61 View Post

So it is getting better Passmark scores and has a crap ton better video performance? I would say AMD looks very good here in your comparisons. You are also making assumptions that the gaming performance is not "good enough"? According to who? You?

In most games, not necessarily brand new, you get something like the mid 20's in FPS @ 1680x1050 with low-med quality settings, without AA. That's virtually bottom of the barrel gaming.

the i5 4430 performs quite a bit better with an r7 250 GPU, than the 7850k does with the same GPU...and it's just $5 price difference. And by the time you've bought both of either, you've spent $260 on APU/GPU....and are still getting rather subpar gaming performance either way.

heck at that rate, I could massively beat the 7850K with a 6 core vishera and a 750ti GPU for around $260 too....and even the 750ti is barely a lower mid range gaming card.

Loser; APU. And the worst part? it loses to AMD's own non APU's, let alone intels CPU's, and Nvidia's GPU's in ALL areas; performance, cost effectiveness, etc.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/15/14 at 10:38am
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post #557 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

In most games, not necessarily brand new, you get something like the mid 20's in FPS @ 1680x1050 with low-med quality settings, without AA. That's virtually bottom of the barrel gaming.

the i5 4430 performs quite a bit better with an r7 250 GPU, than the 7850k does with the same GPU...and it's just $5 price difference. And by the time you've bought both of either, you've spent $260 on APU/GPU....and are still getting rather subpar gaming performance either way.

heck at that rate, I could massively beat the 7850K with a 6 core vishera and a 750ti GPU for around $260 too....and even the 750ti is barely a lower mid range gaming card.

Loser; APU. And the worst part? it loses to AMD's own non APU's, let alone intels CPU's, and Nvidia's GPU's in ALL areas; performance, cost effectiveness, etc.
Tell you what read this: http://benchmarkreviews.com/13238/amd-a10-7850k-performance-optimized-catalyst-14-2-driver/ You NEED to read this. Most of your APU opinions, and yes your opinions are so far from fact that you need to read. Anytime someone uses low res as their basis with no mention of higher res then you know they have no idea. This aint 1998. And this setup happens to almost be exactly what my brother is building next week so I'll be more than happy to relay his findings.

So just read and learn.
post #558 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

In most games, not necessarily brand new, you get something like the mid 20's in FPS @ 1680x1050 with low-med quality settings, without AA. That's virtually bottom of the barrel gaming.

What you are describing is Llano, 1st gen APU, not Kaveri.



This is on 1080p/medium settings on a new and very graphically demanding game (Bioshock Infinite). Contemporary games that are less demanding are more fluid and so are older titles, always on 1080p.


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post #559 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

What you are describing is Llano, 1st gen APU, not Kaveri.



This is on 1080p/medium settings on a new and very graphically demanding game (Bioshock Infinite). Contemporary games that are less demanding are more fluid and so are older titles, always on 1080p.




No, I am not describing Llano, I am clearly describing Kaveri.


http://www.techspot.com/review/781-amd-a10-7850k-graphics-performance/page6.html



Quote:
Tell you what read this: http://benchmarkreviews.com/13238/amd-a10-7850k-performance-optimized-catalyst-14-2-driver/ You NEED to read this. Most of your APU opinions, and yes your opinions are so far from fact that you need to read. Anytime someone uses low res as their basis with no mention of higher res then you know they have no idea. This aint 1998. And this setup happens to almost be exactly what my brother is building next week so I'll be more than happy to relay his findings.

So just read and learn.

again... http://www.techspot.com/review/781-amd-a10-7850k-graphics-performance/page6.html


it's clear as day, just because this isn't 1998, doesn't mean resolution has no impact on FPS. if it can barely get 27fps at low-med settings at 1680x1050, I don't expect it to do any better at 1080p....and I sure as heck don't expect it to do well down the road with future titles.

This is silly because you are literally refuting the facts, to justify your own inaccurate conclusions.

I have proven that AMD APU's are less cost effective and less performing than separate CPU/GPU configurations.

Too weak for even mid range gaming, too expensive for anything less than gaming. Welcome to Kaveri.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/15/14 at 11:59am
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post #560 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

What you are describing is Llano, 1st gen APU, not Kaveri.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


This is on 1080p/medium settings on a new and very graphically demanding game (Bioshock Infinite). Contemporary games that are less demanding are more fluid and so are older titles, always on 1080p.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


I'm planning on building a Kaveri rig for my sis at some point, might throw my TridentX's and 290's in there to see what it does biggrin.gif
 
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