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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 58  

post #571 of 1593
He was talking high end. In an earlier post I said you can't buy a high end AMD consumer cpu because they don't exist. That doesn't stop an 8320 from doing 99% of what a 4770k can do for 99% of the end users needs for a fraction of the price.
post #572 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post


By the time that price reduction comes around there will still be something else more cost effective. It's like you're living in this bubble where prices only go down on things you want to make an inaccurate point of.

Nope. You clearly stated kaveri isn't even good for 1680x1050 on low/mid and you were wrong. Performance is there, you move the goalposts so much you forgot what your initial arguement was.
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post #573 of 1593
Some of you are missing the point of APUs.

HSA is the future for AMD. The problem is that HSA has the chicken and egg problem.

Developers won't make HSA programs because no one has HSA hardware, and people won't buy HSA hardware because there is no software for it.

What AMD is trying to do with Kaveri is grow an install base for HSA compatible systems, so AMD can approach software developers with HSA tools, show them people do own HSA enabled devices, and then the software company will be more likely to support HSA.

AMD's end game is HSA.



7850k with HSA should even beat 4930k. But it needs the software. And as I mentioned earlier, there's a big problem with getting the software or the hardware out there first.

AMD is making an effort to get hardware sold by pushing gaming. Some day they will "flick a switch" and there will be HSA software for all these APU systems that are HSA aware. But for now HSA is just a few really good benchmarks for things a lot of enthusiasts who care about gaming won't run.

Also



FX 8350 competes with 4770k, not 4670k, but only in workloads that scale properly to several threads. 4770k is 6% faster than FX 8350, but FX 8350 is 16% faster than 4670k in x264 (a benchmark I would consider that scales properly with multiple threads.

I'm not sure if that version of x264 is using AVX2, but like I say with everything regarding Intel vs AMD. You need to look at what programs you actually run and if the trade offs of going AMD are worth it.

For me, Blender is the most important thing for me and FX 8350 runs very well compared to Intel's offerings when Intel is just using Windows. I don't care about x264. But some people might care about x264 and not care about Blender.

But my point is that the entire question of "if AMD is viable on the high end" is way too broad of a question. In fact, I'd say it even treads into the troll bait category. It's not much better than saying something like "is Linux even a good desktop OS?"

FX 8000 series is somewhat of a niche product where it can do some things extremely well for the price and some not. But overall I would say that it is capable of competing on the high end, at lest high end of what Intel calls the "mainstream" socket. It really just depends on what you are going to do with your computer.

I know there are plenty of benchmarks where FX doesn't look nearly as good, but my point is that it is a completely viable option if you're buying your computer to (at least) render and transcode video.
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post #574 of 1593
OK PAY attention all.

This isn't hard, or at least doesn't have to be. First this thread starts with a question: Is AMD viable for mid-high-end? So if you want to really discuss this and make a rational non-bias assessment then first you must have the bar a set of components must meet. If AMD can in fact meet this criteria then, and this is the real kicker here,
What price Intel is or how it performs at some arbitrary price has absolutely nothing to do with it.
It doesn't change the original bar set for the qualifying of a particular set of components to be considered mid-high-end. And I am certain that over the many pages it has been proven that AMD CAN IN FACT BE CONSIDERED Mid-High-End. At no point does that say it is better than Intel, but rather a specific amount of performance can be had with AMD hardware. Simple.

Now moving to the Kaveri, seems some ill-informed individuals want to act as if making the comparison to some other CPU/GPU combo is what the market is. WRONG. Kaveri has a number of advantages over the setups some wish to compare.

1: Less power draw, and by a mile. Not even a contest.

2: Far less thermals to deal with. Akin to the power draw.

3: Allows for a far smaller package.

4: And you have to be a fool not to think HSA is anything short of miraculous. Probably the biggest upset to come to the market in the better part of 2 decades.

And please just stop with the price comparisons. There is far too much variety in components and prices to make any kind of valid argument given anytime of day.

All in all each side, AMD or Intel, have advantages and disadvantages. Intel's advantage in compute power (without involving HSA) is first above AMD. I haven't seen any intelligent poster making the case for AMD say once otherwise. But many here have given actual experience with both platforms and concluded that the AMD platform garnered the better daily experience. Even one did the blind test and showed in some, obviously not all, games discerning the difference was nearly impossible to slight in one game, going to Intel in that one Civ5. As far as particulars of programs, for instance Handbrake I think it was, if you want the fastest experience then choose what does it, in most cases Intel. For Gaming the scales are a bit more even and either choice is likely a not as futile. Both will deliver a sound experience. Kaveri and other AMD APUs are an Enigma. They are a separate class and not sure why they made it into this argument other than to point out the direction AMD is headed ( the death of AM3+).

So maybe first the discussion should come to some conclusion as to the bar or minimum results a Mid-High-End system should be able to attain. And stock speeds nor price has anything to do with it. Add those and you start to cheat the criteria and limit the actual number. So it is best to stick to the end results that should be attained by said system to be considered Mid-High-End.
post #575 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Nope. You clearly stated kaveri isn't even good for 1680x1050 on low/mid and you were wrong. Performance is there, you move the goalposts so much you forgot what your initial arguement was.
Love the goal post analogy.
post #576 of 1593
Just interests sake ,I clocked one of my 8350's ( about 60 processes in the back ground, windows install is over a year old - did have the ht link below stock however at 2400mhz fwiw) to 5 ghz to simulate a 9590 and it outscored the I7 3960x in the pov ray benchmark . If the chart for that particular bench would have the 9XXX's on it could very well be FX-9590>3960X>FX-9370>4770K>FX-8350>3820>4670K.
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post #577 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Love the goal post analogy.

That's funny because what he was describing was 2 different games, and pointing to the one that could run at 1080p, while ignoring the ones that couldn't even get 30fps at 1680x1050......now that's more like moving a goal post.

Let's not forget, that 1080p benchmark was without AA, only high settings @ barely 30fps....and skyrim is a 3 year old game that wasn't very demanding to start with!! so again, talk about moving goal posts.

Just say those benchmarks out loud to see how ridiculous it sounds defending a $185 quad core APU that has less performance than a 5 year old midrange GPU.

And the thing about Kaveri I pointed out is, until they do actually release one with onboard memory, they will never be able to compete with standalone GPU's, even the low end ones.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/15/14 at 8:47pm
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post #578 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Some of you are missing the point of APUs.

HSA is the future for AMD. The problem is that HSA has the chicken and egg problem.

Developers won't make HSA programs because no one has HSA hardware, and people won't buy HSA hardware because there is no software for it.

What AMD is trying to do with Kaveri is grow an install base for HSA compatible systems, so AMD can approach software developers with HSA tools, show them people do own HSA enabled devices, and then the software company will be more likely to support HSA.

AMD's end game is HSA.



7850k with HSA should even beat 4930k. But it needs the software. And as I mentioned earlier, there's a big problem with getting the software or the hardware out there first.

AMD is making an effort to get hardware sold by pushing gaming. Some day they will "flick a switch" and there will be HSA software for all these APU systems that are HSA aware. But for now HSA is just a few really good benchmarks for things a lot of enthusiasts who care about gaming won't run.

Also



FX 8350 competes with 4770k, not 4670k, but only in workloads that scale properly to several threads. 4770k is 6% faster than FX 8350, but FX 8350 is 16% faster than 4670k in x264 (a benchmark I would consider that scales properly with multiple threads.

I'm not sure if that version of x264 is using AVX2, but like I say with everything regarding Intel vs AMD. You need to look at what programs you actually run and if the trade offs of going AMD are worth it.

For me, Blender is the most important thing for me and FX 8350 runs very well compared to Intel's offerings when Intel is just using Windows. I don't care about x264. But some people might care about x264 and not care about Blender.

But my point is that the entire question of "if AMD is viable on the high end" is way too broad of a question. In fact, I'd say it even treads into the troll bait category. It's not much better than saying something like "is Linux even a good desktop OS?"

FX 8000 series is somewhat of a niche product where it can do some things extremely well for the price and some not. But overall I would say that it is capable of competing on the high end, at lest high end of what Intel calls the "mainstream" socket. It really just depends on what you are going to do with your computer.

I know there are plenty of benchmarks where FX doesn't look nearly as good, but my point is that it is a completely viable option if you're buying your computer to (at least) render and transcode video.

 

I think the problem with HSA is that by the time there is market permeation, they'll have sacrificed too much by relying on HSA to cover the differential between them and Intel. And Intel might catch up with AMD's HSA performance (given Intel's current roadmap vs AMD), or join in on HSA bandwagon, putting AMD back to square one in either scenario. HSA isn't AMD proprietary tech. It's essentially an open standard.

 

Hence why relying on HSA to bridge the gap is more of a fool's gambit in my honest opinion. I'm not knocking down AMD's APUs either. Heck, I use one, and it does a great job. But for long term reliability versus Intel offerings, I just don't see it happening.

 

And for once, I do agree with you that AMD does compete with Intel's high-end mainstream sockets in some respects, and falls behind in others. But otherwise, its a competitor. Its just that once you start going past that, AMD falls flat on its face.

post #579 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

That's funny because what he was describing was 2 different games, and pointing to the one that could run at 1080p, while ignoring the ones that couldn't even get 30fps at 1680x1050......now that's more like moving a goal post.

Let's not forget, that 1080p benchmark was without AA, only high settings @ barely 30fps....and skyrim is a 3 year old game that wasn't very demanding to start with!! so again, talk about moving goal posts.

Just say those benchmarks out loud to see how ridiculous it sounds defending a $185 quad core APU that has less performance than a 5 year old midrange GPU.

And the thing about Kaveri I pointed out is, until they do actually release one with onboard memory, they will never be able to compete with standalone GPU's, even the low end ones.
Actually what I find odd is that you love to side step the issue at hand. It is common knowledge that lowering the resolution increases the CPU bottleneck. 1080p is the standard now, as in most or at least the bulk of those purchasing new computers for gaming are buying 1080p minimum. Most sites agree that anything less is nothing more than a talking point, and as so many here have stated, not indicative or everyday use. Besides all these benchmarks show my setup with Skyrim should NOT be running over 50fps yet I can run 120fps, although I cap at 75fps for the physics issue on Skyrim.

Twist in the wind all you want, just makes you look like a hater. I mentioned before you seem to ignore the good posts that in every sense of the word destroy your argument. So pay attention this time please:
Quote:
Now moving to the Kaveri, seems some ill-informed individuals want to act as if making the comparison to some other CPU/GPU combo is what the market is. WRONG. Kaveri has a number of advantages over the setups some wish to compare.

1: Less power draw, and by a mile. Not even a contest.

2: Far less thermals to deal with. Akin to the power draw.

3: Allows for a far smaller package.

4: And you have to be a fool not to think HSA is anything short of miraculous. Probably the biggest upset to come to the market in the better part of 2 decades.

You are missing the point and what Kaveri is showing us as consumers. Did you know that Kaveri @ 45TDP is nearly 80% of the performance of Kaveri @ 95TDP? You know what this shows us? An APU that is gonna bring some heft to the tablet and laptop market.
post #580 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Actually what I find odd is that you love to side step the issue at hand. It is common knowledge that lowering the resolution increases the CPU bottleneck

With Kaveri the GPU and memory bandwidth is the bottleneck, not the CPU Thus, your point is very dull.
Quote:
1080p is the standard now, as in most or at least the bulk of those purchasing new computers for gaming are buying 1080p minimum.

show me a benchmark where a system runs less FPS @ 1680x1050 compared to 1080p.
Quote:
Tell you what read this: http://benchmarkreviews.com/13238/amd-a10-7850k-performance-optimized-catalyst-14-2-driver/ You NEED to read this. Most of your APU opinions, and yes your opinions are so far from fact that you need to read. Anytime someone uses low res as their basis with no mention of higher res then you know they have no idea. This aint 1998. And this setup happens to almost be exactly what my brother is building next week so I'll be more than happy to relay his findings.

So just read and learn.

Drivers can only go so far in increasing performance. It's not some magical tap that forever increases performance. Drivers can not make up for lack of memory bandwidth and GPU strength in general.

30fps at normal and low settings, am I supposed to be impressed? It's not even really that in depth of a review...it has limited data, and doesn't say whether it's max fps or min fps or any other settings like AA (not that it really matters since it isn't really a positive anyways considering the performance vs price) It's the kind of review someone cites when they're nitpicking.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/15/14 at 11:01pm
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