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post #701 of 1593
A 9370 is "much more expensive" than an i7? In what dimension? Even after mobo/cooling costs are calculated they cost around the same.
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post #702 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

A 9370 is "much more expensive" than an i7? In what dimension? Even after mobo/cooling costs are calculated they cost around the same.

It's not the 9370 that generally competes with a 4770k. You need a 9590 for that.

Stock 4770K:
$300 CPU
$70 mobo
$0 cooler

stock 9590:
$300 CPU
$150 mobo
$90 cooler

Add OCing hardware to the 4770K build and the cost rises up to the same numbers as the 9590 build. Of course at this point the 9590 doesn't stand a chance performance wise.
 
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post #703 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

A 9370 is "much more expensive" than an i7? In what dimension? Even after mobo/cooling costs are calculated they cost around the same.

true enough, at the rate they drop prices it might be the same price as an i3 in May. would still rule out <500w psu, sub $160 motherboards and sub $60 coolers as viable though.
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post #704 of 1593
Also, in case you feel that the mobo cost difference above doesn't look justifiable, take the power requirements of each processor into account.

A simple 6-phase VRM on a 70$ mobo is fine for the power requirements of a 4770k.

Try the same on a "simple" 4 or 6 phase VRM on a simple ~100$ mobo for the 9590 (extra cost on mobo is the north-bridge) and you're more or less ready to have the board and CPU go with a "bang", literally.


Also note the need for a PSU about 200 watts stronger for the AMD part (it draws a lot) compared to the Intel part.


In case you haven't noticed yet, there are quite some indirect costs involved when choosing to go with AMD. tongue.gif
post #705 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

It's not the 9370 that generally competes with a 4770k. You need a 9590 for that.

Stock 4770K:
$300 CPU
$70 mobo
$0 cooler

stock 9590:
$300 CPU
$150 mobo
$90 cooler

Add OCing hardware to the 4770K build and the cost rises up to the same numbers as the 9590 build. Of course at this point the 9590 doesn't stand a chance performance wise.

...at the same time 9370 will cost ~100$ less than said 9590 and with lesser cooling needed at stock and still is very well poised vs 4770k. And it is piss easy to reach stock 9590 clocks and it will often match max 9590 clocks. You will need the improved cooling but all in all it is much better positioned pricewise vs 4770k than 9590, without sacrificing much, if anything at all. Also, is there a 70$ SLi/CFX capable z87 mobo?
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post #706 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Also, in case you feel that the mobo cost difference above doesn't look justifiable, take the power requirements of each processor into account.

A simple 6-phase VRM on a 70$ mobo is fine for the power requirements of a 4770k.

Try the same on a "simple" 4 or 6 phase VRM on a simple ~100$ mobo for the 9590 (extra cost on mobo is the north-bridge) and you're more or less ready to have the board and CPU go with a "bang", literally.


Also note the need for a PSU about 200 watts stronger for the AMD part (it draws a lot) compared to the Intel part.


In case you haven't noticed yet, there are quite some indirect costs involved when choosing to go with AMD. tongue.gif

you can offset these costs by spending less money to heat your home after setting up that space heater.


I really dnt understand the existence of the 9 series fx.
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post #707 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

A 9370 is "much more expensive" than an i7? In what dimension? Even after mobo/cooling costs are calculated they cost around the same.

It's not the 9370 that generally competes with a 4770k. You need a 9590 for that.

Stock 4770K:
$300 CPU
$70 mobo
$0 cooler

stock 9590:
$300 CPU
$150 mobo
$90 cooler

Add OCing hardware to the 4770K build and the cost rises up to the same numbers as the 9590 build. Of course at this point the 9590 doesn't stand a chance performance wise.

You really need to decide which chip you want to compare the 4770k to, it seems like if performance is the question, you choose the 8350. If price is the question, you choose the 9590.
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post #708 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Seriously, comparing a CPU that draws 75 watts with one that consumes 3 times that amount is not quite a relevant comparison either.

You'd never do that when comparing GPUs of the same era, solely for the reason of being fair and subjective.

The point is that even under those circumstances, an FX 9590 with the nuclear plant it needs to power it is struggling to keep a clean lead against a 4770k. That's a comparison that completely disregards long term costs and extra costs to keep the AMD part cool... and the AMD part still has issues taking a clean lead.


That's like saying that you'd buy a 3000$ car needing 1000$ per month on gas, than a 4000$ car needing 300$ on gas per month to travel the same distance, just because the first runs 2 miles faster per hour.

Seriously, there's something really wrong with the reasoning of some people.
Look below for why your obvious fanboyism with Intel does not hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I've never said that. In fact I very much agree with buying the 8-core FXs for some OCing fun. Or the lower end chips (6300 and down) for lower end gaming machines.

I've personally bought three 8-core FXs and two FM2 chips lately. I think AMD getting more money is great. AMD being competitive is great.

However.

That does not mean that I will do PR for AMD and tell people that their chips can compete with high end intel's. Or that 8-core FXs are good value for gaming. I wont sugarcoat the reality of things and mislead gamers in order to protect AMD. AMD is a multi-billion dollar company, they will do just fine without any of us.
No what you do is say the wrong things obviously. Word usage matters. You said AMD isn't competitive with Intel. See here is where you would add the definition or in the least set the bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Also, in case you feel that the mobo cost difference above doesn't look justifiable, take the power requirements of each processor into account.

A simple 6-phase VRM on a 70$ mobo is fine for the power requirements of a 4770k.

Try the same on a "simple" 4 or 6 phase VRM on a simple ~100$ mobo for the 9590 (extra cost on mobo is the north-bridge) and you're more or less ready to have the board and CPU go with a "bang", literally.


Also note the need for a PSU about 200 watts stronger for the AMD part (it draws a lot) compared to the Intel part.


In case you haven't noticed yet, there are quite some indirect costs involved when choosing to go with AMD. tongue.gif
Ok now for the lesson in humility.

Take a real close look here because apparently you know next to nothing of what you claim to know so much about. Power usage is not so dramatic. On a side note the 4770Ks numbers are pretty outstanding going from 3.5 to 4.5. But even here the difference is about half for most intel of what AMD uses. And by the by TDP does not equal power usage. Most well informed enthusiasts know this.

I am going to let this debate run a bit longer till I re-enter the fray. Not really interested in nitpicking every posts.
post #709 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

You really need to decide which chip you want to compare the 4770k to, it seems like if performance is the question, you choose the 8350. If price is the question, you choose the 9590.

No, actually he doesn't. It's up to the market prices to decide what compares with what.

You might be willing to decide on how to do a counter-argument, by conveniently ignoring some things and conveniently embracing some others, depending on the situation, but reality doesn't work like that.

Proper decisions rely on how close the ones affected are to a global approach of the whole situation. This is nothing close to what happens in this thread.

Some of the things noted:

- I keep seeing comparisons of the initial direct costs involved by the ones who justify what AMD has to offer, while any subsequent costs are blatantly ignored. Is this the "free energy for all" era or something? In that case you can send some of the free energy here if you don't mind.

- The ones who favor AMD interpret the better performance of the FX series (compared to the Intel equivalents) in about 20% of the shown benchmarks as something that makes them competitive. Since when is 1 out of 5 considered competitive? With the same reasoning, an i7 920 is competitive against an FX 8320.

- Some of the ones involved completely disregard the obvious, in order to justify their claims. Take a look at the post above.

Exact quote: "Take a real close look here because apparently you know next to nothing of what you claim to know so much about. Power usage is not so dramatic."
What the "real close look" showed: The FX 9590 @5GHz draws about twice as a 4770k @4.5GHz. That's 150 watts, with the AMD part about at stock, and the intel part having about a 25% overclock.
For that power you run two more stock 4770s or an extra mid-end GPU. Heck, a whole 8 drive RAID array consumes less than that.

I can't counter-argue that. It counter-argues itself.
post #710 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post


- The ones who favor AMD interpret the better performance of the FX series (compared to the Intel equivalents) in about 20% of the shown benchmarks as something that makes them competitive. Since when is 1 out of 5 considered competitive? With the same reasoning, an i7 920 is competitive against an FX 8320.

Selective interpretation goes both ways, mind you (ie in many applications the i7-4770k runs stock at 3.9Ghz thanks to turbo, that would make a 4.5Ghz overclock 15% increase) . In the end it is all down to personal use. Also remember,when it comes to gaming, GPU bound scenarios are very common even with CPU intensive games. Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch0mR4Evu8I
i7-3770k stock (3.7Ghz, thanks to turbo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFcMRtq1zGo
FX-8350 stock (4Ghz, no Thermal headroom available for turbo)

Don't delve too much in the specific game, the point is 1080p/60Hz gaming, very common, very "real world" scenario. Similar performance (more than 60fps both ways, card gets maxed out), same experience. AMD system consumes about 70W more- the AMD processor was a good 100euros cheaper too. There is a whole pattern (not just select select few benchmarks) that favor this cheap CPU/expensive GPU combo practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIT9uLDjZcg

A very simplistic approach but in many cases a prospective buyer would be better off with the athlon plus a beefier gpu than the 4670k and a weaker one (for the same budget). In other cases the 4670k would be better still, or even an i3 and a beefier GPU. Or the same for an i7-920 vs a FX-8350 ,yes. And this whole situation means the Athlon is very competitive in certain albeit quite common situations. Competitive being a key word here.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 3/19/14 at 4:32pm
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