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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 77  

post #761 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post


Since the majority of people build PCs for gaming,

This statement is a bit off because it does not do a good job of being clear. First the "majority" of gamers do not build their own PCs. Now the counter however, the majority of people that build their own PC are gamers is probably a pretty fair assessment.

When it comes to building a gaming PC there is a lot of different approaches out there but this forum and other enthusiast forums are usually very focused in a specific area and way of gaming. For example the majority of gamers will be using a 24" or less monitor, this is not however true on this forum. The number of gamers that use multi-monitors is a tiny fraction of the PC gaming world while here the percentage is significantly higher.

In the case of CPUs the truth is that most gamers get a great gaming experience from older chips and lower cost modern chips. I know a guy gaming on one of the EARLY Phenom II 940 chips using AM2+ and yet he runs every game he plays including a lot of current games at 1080 and high detail with no lag or issues with his game play. With this in mind the truth is AMD is a very viable option for gaming usage, however the title of the thread is accurate that at the ultra high, enthusiast end it is not a viable option. For the price of the higher end AMD chips the Intel offerings are just better solutions. Dive under the $175 price point, which is still very solid mid range gaming, and AMD has a much stronger position.

The same reasoning BTW applies in the GPU world as well. For the 95% of the PC gaming world a high end GPU is a 280X or a 770. Anything past that looks great in benchmarks but is all but meaningless in actual play experience. The truth is the 270X is the real sweet spot in gaming cards right now with great 1080 performance and a reasonable price tag.

The problem with a discussion of mid range, or mainstream gaming on this forum is that quite frankly most of the people here do not truly have a clue what that is or means. Tell someone here to game on a 24" TN panel 1080 monitor with a 270X using an APU or I3 for the processor and the majority will cringe as if you have somehow hurt them. In the real world those specs are pretty close to the high end range of the norm.

Good points.
I have a 940 , it might be fun to see how well it can do when paired with my 7970 smile.gif
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post #762 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

So first you come into the thread and tell me to use newegg pricing instead of microcenter's for comparison's sake( which I agree with), then you say it's ok to consider xenon's in
the comparison? I assume you mean at newegg prices for the xenons as well?

I suggest price quotes come from commonly available sources. Since Newegg and similar major e-tailers often have the most competitive prices for these parts, that are not restricted to narrow geographical locales, nor otherwise limited to small markets, I think they are the best ones to use when making comparisons about new hardware.

There aren't any competitive LGA 1155, 1150, or 2011 Xeons for overclocking purposes. They are all locked.

You can't find many worthwhile LGA-1366 Xeons at major e-tailers, because the platform is four generations old, and most parts have been discontinued for some time. That said, you can't find worthwhile consumer parts here either. Forums, local classifieds, or eBay, are the best places to find this stuff.

I'm not sure why you, or anyone, who understands that a Xeon or Opteron on a consumer socket is normally functionally identical to consumer parts, would have any objections to including them in comparisons where they might be relevant.

Most objections to the inclusions of Xeons/Opterons are based on "intended usage" or other factors which are, at worst and most often, total nonsense, and at best, completely irrelevant. There is no reason not to compare an X5560 and an i7 930, since they work exactly the same way and can be dropped into the same boards. There is also never any reason to buy them from Newegg in 2014 since they can be had for 5% of the price from reputable eBay auctions with even greater accessibility.

Microcenter's sales are in store only and Microcenter is not omnipresent. Intel Retail Edge requires an account that is granted only to employees of places that sell Intel products. These are the only reasons I do not consider them useful for general comparison.
Edited by Blameless - 3/20/14 at 11:48am
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post #763 of 1593
I remember using my Thuban, it was a butter smooth experience. That was only a few months ago frown.gif
post #764 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Explain. That's a massive fluctuation. So, either the power savings features on AMD's part are more aggressive yet also quite loose or the I7 is consistent. Yet my Athlon at stock consumed 10-20W more which is pretty decent and also minimal. I know it's not an argument because mines a quad but the point is it's not all to do with TDP. It's not always TDP = power but in fact depends on the processor.

Yeah man, I can tell CnQ + C6 + C1E really make a difference in power consumption, I can assure this, yes power fluctuates much more because of dynamic clocking and parking(or sleeping?). My PC with a 9370 is using ~300W without those features, all cores active, with some low-medium activity going on (10-20% load). CnQ makes power fluctuate between 200W and 300W on max clock frequency. With also C1E and C6 active on idle the pc drops to 100W, yes my pc with a 9370 and an r9 290 on idle consumes like a laptop O.o

I think the performance detriment with those features can only be seen in benchmarks, and possibly if you open and close applications quickly so that pc can't decide how much power do you need but that's never the case, you might want to use high performance when playing games, but only if the game is problematic and uses cpu in a weird way (Like 100%-0 drops) which is rare too.

I gotta say I don't know how turbo core interacts with those, if it works better or worse might require testing, actually my pc clocked a 4.9ghz never goes to turbo core a 5.2ghz probably because most of my games are multi threaded.

The asus mobo has also the EPU (energy processing unit) but I have not found any improvement activating it, might possibly be broken on my end in fact my pc does not boot if I activate it through bios, and have to activate it through asus suite. It should lower the VCORE dynamically, whereas CnQ only changes multiplier, I'll do some more testing on this.
post #765 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post


Since the majority of people build PCs for gaming,

Since you're going to use anecdotes I will too, I don't know one person who builds their PC for gaming as a matter of fact I don't know one person who games at all whether it be PC or console. I do know however, many that do build their own PC's it's not particularly hard nor is it now particularly hard to to overclock. Anecdotes are not evidence nor are are multiple anecdotes
 
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post #766 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

So first you come into the thread and tell me to use newegg pricing instead of microcenter's for comparison's sake( which I agree with), then you say it's ok to consider xenon's in
the comparison? I assume you mean at newegg prices for the xenons as well?

I suggest price quotes come from commonly available sources. Since Newegg and similar major e-tailers often have the most competitive prices for these parts, that are not restricted to narrow geographical locales, nor otherwise limited to small markets, I think they are the best ones to use when making comparisons about new hardware.

There aren't any competitive LGA 1155, 1150, or 2011 Xeons for overclocking purposes. They are all locked.

You can't find many worthwhile LGA-1366 Xeons at major e-tailers, because the platform is four generations old, and most parts have been discontinued for some time. That said, you can't find worthwhile consumer parts here either. Forums, local classifieds, or eBay, are the best places to find this stuff.

I'm not sure why you, or anyone, who understands that a Xeon or Opteron on a consumer socket is normally functionally identical to consumer parts, would have any objections to including them in comparisons where they might be relevant.

Most objections to the inclusions of Xeons/Opterons are based on "intended usage" or other factors which are, at worst and most often, total nonsense, and at best, completely irrelevant. There is no reason not to compare an X5560 and an i7 930, since they work exactly the same way and can be dropped into the same boards. There is also never any reason to buy them from Newegg in 2014 since they can be had for 5% of the price from reputable eBay auctions with even greater accessibility.

Microcenter's sales are in store only and Microcenter is not omnipresent. Intel Retail Edge requires an account that is granted only to employees of places that sell Intel products. These are the only reasons I do not consider them useful for general comparison.


The more people the comparison applies to the more relevant it is. Newegg pricing, stock clocks, everyday usage. The FX is certainly a great option for the vast majority of users.

I was told it wasn't a fair comparison to use a 3770k in against the FX's , desktop vs desktop, 8 thread vs 8 thread using new pricing . You are suggesting that comparing a 6 core 12 thread server chip at used prices is ok? That would be a bit of a stretch even for Reed Richards , don't you think?
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post #767 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Since you're going to use anecdotes I will too, I don't know one person who builds their PC for gaming as a matter of fact I don't know one person who games at all whether it be PC or console. I do know however, many that do build their own PC's it's not particularly hard nor is it now particularly hard to to overclock. Anecdotes are not evidence nor are are multiple anecdotes

How many people on OCN as a whole do you think game on their PC?
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post #768 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Since you're going to use anecdotes I will too, I don't know one person who builds their PC for gaming as a matter of fact I don't know one person who games at all whether it be PC or console. I do know however, many that do build their own PC's it's not particularly hard nor is it now particularly hard to to overclock. Anecdotes are not evidence nor are are multiple anecdotes

How many people on OCN as a whole do you think game on their PC?

Dunno, but OCN is not representative of PC builders as a whole. In the sections I hang out in thought I'd say 1/3
 
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post #769 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

This statement is a bit off because it does not do a good job of being clear. First the "majority" of gamers do not build their own PCs. Now the counter however, the majority of people that build their own PC are gamers is probably a pretty fair assessment.

When it comes to building a gaming PC there is a lot of different approaches out there but this forum and other enthusiast forums are usually very focused in a specific area and way of gaming. For example the majority of gamers will be using a 24" or less monitor, this is not however true on this forum. The number of gamers that use multi-monitors is a tiny fraction of the PC gaming world while here the percentage is significantly higher.

In the case of CPUs the truth is that most gamers get a great gaming experience from older chips and lower cost modern chips. I know a guy gaming on one of the EARLY Phenom II 940 chips using AM2+ and yet he runs every game he plays including a lot of current games at 1080 and high detail with no lag or issues with his game play. With this in mind the truth is AMD is a very viable option for gaming usage, however the title of the thread is accurate that at the ultra high, enthusiast end it is not a viable option. For the price of the higher end AMD chips the Intel offerings are just better solutions. Dive under the $175 price point, which is still very solid mid range gaming, and AMD has a much stronger position.

The same reasoning BTW applies in the GPU world as well. For the 95% of the PC gaming world a high end GPU is a 280X or a 770. Anything past that looks great in benchmarks but is all but meaningless in actual play experience. The truth is the 270X is the real sweet spot in gaming cards right now with great 1080 performance and a reasonable price tag.

The problem with a discussion of mid range, or mainstream gaming on this forum is that quite frankly most of the people here do not truly have a clue what that is or means. Tell someone here to game on a 24" TN panel 1080 monitor with a 270X using an APU or I3 for the processor and the majority will cringe as if you have somehow hurt them. In the real world those specs are pretty close to the high end range of the norm.

Point taken but the title doesn't say ultra end, the title says mid-high end. And it's well known for the super enthusiast out there who needs the best that Intel is the way to go. But then why compare the 8320 to the 4770K? That seems like an unfair comparison and the feeling that I got from the comparison was that it was for gaming. When I hear mid-high end, I think of gaming because that is how I was introduced to computers. That might be my mistake, but I think it's safe to assume that the CPU and GPU profits are influenced by gamers to a large degree. There are many more gamers out there than there are animators and programmers, and Intel and AMD know this, and thus many of their CPUs are made with the gamer in mind. So if you are a gamer, which many of us are and many benchmarks out there use games, then spending $300 on an Intel 4770K is unnecessary. I know many people in my own life who think that they need Intel because it will make their games run faster, and I have gotten that sentiment from many people on OCN as a whole when it comes to building gaming rigs. As for the people building gaming PCs comment, it was a matter of poor semantics on my part.
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post #770 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Dunno, but OCN is not representative of PC builders as a whole. In the sections I hang out in thought I'd say 1/3

Then you know that 1/3 of people on here are gamers, and of them at least a good portion of them would see this thread and automatically think that their AMD CPU is no longer worthy of gaming on. When someone compares the 4770K to an AMD CPU, there is a good change that person is probably a gamer. I am not picking on him because many people think that way. People think that there is an actual difference in AMD's flagship CPU vs Intel's i5 or i7 to such a degree that it is easily noticeable when running games. I believe that PC gaming is why AMD and Intel is a household name to many PC builders. The PC building industry would be nothing without gamers. So, naturally, I assumed that people on here are going to make the mistake of thinking that they can no longer buy an AMD CPU when building their gaming PC. I know PC gamers who are very dumb and I have met some of the same types of people on here. I am not saying the OP or the guy I was replying to are dumb, but we need to back up a bit and realize that AMD has never been in it for the ultra power user who probably makes up a small fraction of the PC market, they build their CPUs for the average builder who probably plays PC games and doesn't want to spend $300 on a computer part for a toy, which is what many PCs are.
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Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD CPUs › AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end?